Online poker tips - How to read other players.

Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
I am starting this thread hoping for a bit of advice.

I would like to know how to read players better online. I seem to get trapped alot online, and I think I fold too easily (in different spots).
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Its key to remember that we dont actually care how we do against his particular hand. we should be more concerned how our hand plays against his range. Find a hand to review, construct a range for that street, and on each street determine what you think he is likely to do with each hand, remove hands that you expect to raise from his calling range and vice versa. do this for each street and either use stove to determine our equity, or look at the relative frequency of each hand being dealt. eg if you assign a range of 1010-QQ and AK (for whatever reason) on a 10JQr board, there a 9 combos of sets and 16 of AK, however if you hold AK also he now has 9 combos of sets but only 9 combos of AK.
Basically its exactly the same as live, look to understand bet sizing tells and infer player tendencies from his stats, eg a 55/3 will not have a bluff c/r range on a 478r board, he has 44/77/88/56. timing tells can also be addressed, but usually search the guys name and get a table count first. if its over 8 dont read too much into it.
 
cdooley72

cdooley72

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2012
Total posts
517
Awards
1
Chips
0
Its key to remember that we dont actually care how we do against his particular hand. we should be more concerned how our hand plays against his range. Find a hand to review, construct a range for that street, and on each street determine what you think he is likely to do with each hand, remove hands that you expect to raise from his calling range and vice versa. do this for each street and either use stove to determine our equity, or look at the relative frequency of each hand being dealt. eg if you assign a range of 1010-QQ and AK (for whatever reason) on a 10JQr board, there a 9 combos of sets and 16 of AK, however if you hold AK also he now has 9 combos of sets but only 9 combos of AK.
Basically its exactly the same as live, look to understand bet sizing tells and infer player tendencies from his stats, eg a 55/3 will not have a bluff c/r range on a 478r board, he has 44/77/88/56. timing tells can also be addressed, but usually search the guys name and get a table count first. if its over 8 dont read too much into it.


Duggs,

Could you post a video of you doing this? I know you know your shit and I watch you vids. But in text I think it sounds so much more complicated then it might be. I know you have given me the same advice and sorry bro you understanding of poker theory makes it hard for us lesser players to understand what/how to go about doing the advice you are giving.

LOL god I sound like an ass kissing noob but I have no ego about learning.

Thanks
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
we can go through it if you post a hand mate, go find one and we will do it here.(I'm considering doing a HH for someone for my 2k but i havent organised picking up the recording software yet)
 
cdooley72

cdooley72

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2012
Total posts
517
Awards
1
Chips
0
In what format do you need it. I ask because I have no database software and when ever I try to get a hand/convert it to the thread it messes up. And what are you looking for in a hand? To give me a better idea of what to look for.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
any hand, a HH that gets past preflop
 
IntenseHeat

IntenseHeat

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Total posts
1,058
Chips
0
The best advice I can give is to pay attention! We're all creatures of habit. Most players have tendencies and habits that you can pick up on if you watch them closely. You need to look for patterns and irregularities in those patterns. That's why we sometimes pay to see our opponents cards after we've missed our draw. I want to know what kind of hands you're playing, what you're calling with, what you're raising with, and what you're calling my raises with.

Once I can put you on a range, then I can determine whether or not your story makes sense. Like knowing that a player wouldn't have raised pre-flop with the type of hand that the baby cards that flopped would have hit. Therefore, my medium pair is likely good at this point and I want to try to induce a fold before my opponent catches.

There are different kinds of players out there. So you have to pay attention to individuals and their individual tendencies, then ask yourself if their story makes sense. Why so much? Why so little. It depends on the player. Sometimes a fish doesn't know how to get value from his hand and overbets it, chasing his man away. Sometimes they overbet because they are bluffing and don't want a call. You know all this. The point is to apply it to the individual and their individual style. For example the guy who has been consistently trying to steal my blinds from the hijack position. Except I noticed that weaker his hand, the more he raises. He might make it 3x with Q-8, but with 2-7, he's shoving.
 
Last edited:
cdooley72

cdooley72

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2012
Total posts
517
Awards
1
Chips
0
any hand, a HH that gets past preflop

Like I said with out a proper DB. Every time I try to post one any converter says "WRONG FORMAT" Not sure how to go about doing it.

You get one and show us how it is done.
 
S

sryImPro

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Total posts
1,115
Chips
0
well in my opinion there's no such a thing as "read" in online poker,actually it sounds more like paradox to me...In order to know how to act at the tables better follow other players aggression,i think that's only way online...Tho,that's only my opinion...
 
IntenseHeat

IntenseHeat

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Total posts
1,058
Chips
0
For example the guy who has been consistently trying to steal my blinds from the hijack position. Except I noticed that weaker his hand, the more he raises. He might make it 3x with Q-8, but with 2-7, he's shoving.

And there you are. Guy shoves all-in on my blind from the hijack. I call him with Q-Q and he's holding 5-8. This is what I'm talking about. I've been watching this guy while I was typing my previous post and picked up on the pattern.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
And there you are. Guy shoves all-in on my blind from the hijack. I call him with Q-Q and he's holding 5-8. This is what I'm talking about. I've been watching this guy while I was typing my previous post and picked up on the pattern.

I guess I don't pay enough attention to the dynamics. Is this a tourney you are playing or cash?
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
I guess I will just try to range them just like in live. It is tougher OOP with no physical tells. I'll avoid being OOP.

And I had aces yesterday on bovada, on SB. Tag player on BB smooth calls. I thought if he had a big PP he would reraise. He didn't. He had KK flopped a set and smooth called the whole way. I put him on a king, not a set. I guess in hindsight, it was smart the way dude played. He was probably a very good tag.

That's what is tough about ranging people online. I might have seen the confidence live, but online I am just OOP with aces. Sometimes these people do things I wouldn't expect.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
Ok it's much easier than I thought to play 2c5c on bovada. These people limp, they check, they just call. when they show aggression, they are really strong.

for some reason I thought it would be difficult to read players online. For the most part it is not. Yaaaay.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Example. for CD, I pulled this from a tournament yesterday and its simple but will serve the purpose.

he is running at around 40/35

his opening range is like A5s+ A9o+ 22+ JQo+ J8s+ K9s+ Q10s+ K10o+ 67s+

I have a relatively loose aggressive image so with that in mind his 4bet jamming range is like 1010+ AQo+, AJs is on the fence (he jams some Axs aswell but doesnt really change anything as it isnt part of his flatting range). he probably folds the offsuit stuff and some of his dominated aces and continues with A8s-A10s A10o-AJo KQs KQo J8s-JQs 66-99.

on the flop he checks his entire range to me 99% of the time.
on the turn he bets much more than 1/4 pot with Ax hands, and bets this small with 66/88/99/J8-JQ KQs KJs etc that is trying to fold better (or see where it is at, which is a horrible reasoning to bet but whatev)
so his range on the turn is like 66/88/99/J8s-Jqs KQs KJs KQo, we can likely almost entirely remove Ax since with combos being considerably lessened and sizing.

river his betting range is 66/88 (we can remove 99 due to sizing) J8-JQs KQs KQo, which we have 100% equity against which makes it an easy call (even including some weaker Ax combos like A5s wont make this a bad call).
raising river only really gets value from 9x, but 9x is much more likely to just check/call this river. since we cant get value from worse really often.


pokerstars - $20+$2|75/150 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

BB: 4,469.00
UTG: 4,913.00
CO: 7,101.00
Hero (BTN): 7,178.00
SB: 8,069.00

BB posts ante 20.00, UTG posts ante 20.00, CO posts ante 20.00, Hero posts ante 20.00, SB posts ante 20.00, SB posts SB 75.00, BB posts BB 150.00

Pre Flop: (325.00) Hero has Qc Qs

UTG raises to 300.00, fold, Hero raises to 788.00, fold, fold, UTG calls 488.00

Flop: (1901.00, 2 players) 5d Ac 7h
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: (1901.00, 2 players) As
UTG bets 450.00, Hero calls 450.00

River: (2801.00, 2 players) 9h
UTG bets 450.00, Hero calls 450.00
 
IntenseHeat

IntenseHeat

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Total posts
1,058
Chips
0
Ok it's much easier than I thought to play 2c5c on bovada. These people limp, they check, they just call. when they show aggression, they are really strong.

for some reason I thought it would be difficult to read players online. For the most part it is not. Yaaaay.

That's what I'm talking about. It can be that simple sometimes, if you pay attention to your opponents. We can overthink it sometimes and wonder if our man is acting weak so we'll think he's strong because he really is weak, or not. Sometimes it is what it is. They act strong because they are strong. Sometimes they act weak when they're strong to get action, and strong when they're weak to induce a fold. Your task is to try to figure out which players play which way. It helps if you can put them on a range. Then you will know that it doesn't make sense when someone makes an oversized bet to represent and hand that you know, if they really had it, they would have raised with it pre-flop. Remember, don't be afraid to pay for a little information. A little information can prove to be invaluable at the poker table.
 
Last edited:
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
That's what I'm talking about. It can be that simple sometimes, if you pay attention to your opponents. We can overthink it sometimes and wonder if our man is acting weak so we'll think he's strong because he really is weak, or not. Sometimes it is what it is. They act strong because they are strong. Sometimes they act weak when they're strong to get action, and strong when they're weak to induce a fold. Your task is to try to figure out. Remember, don't be afraid to pay for a little information.


To dive in a little more.

If I enter the pot, I raise, period. I very rarely limp. I know I am probably entering the pot less than 20% of the time.

Nevertheless, my opponents do not like this. After a while, they are calling, and when one reaches his boiling point- he shoves. Usually A-x off or better, sometimes K-J or even less.

I sit and fold, fold, fold, etc. Then they get fed up and start playing back at me.

That is one of the benefits of being anonymous, I can just leave and go somewhere else.

However, I honestly wish I could track players. Some of these players are soooo bad, I would lkke to follow them.
 
IntenseHeat

IntenseHeat

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Total posts
1,058
Chips
0
That's why I dislike that whole anonymous thing. I pay a lot of attention at the tables and keep pretty good notes. I was playing an S&G about a week ago, and this guy was throwing chips like a monkey flinging crap at the zoo. You could tell nobody wanted to risk their stack calling his river shoves, but I knew he was full of it. Then I noticed that I had notes on him. I could have kicked myself. My notes told me what kind of player he was, what his range was, and exactly how I should play against him. Five hands later, I had him down to the felt. I don't use a hud or anything. I just pay attention at the tables and take good notes. Bovada renders any note taking useless. You basicly have to start over from scratch every time you sit down. Imagine if everyone wore masks at the wsop and played using fake names or random numbers.
 
Last edited:
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
The people at my table are some of the worst players in the history of poker, and I can not get a hand. There is absolutely no way to bluff.

I need a run of cards.
 
D

dan abnormal

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Total posts
1,045
Chips
0
DAMN Duggs you got all of that from that hand, that is ultra impressive and shows me I dont have a grip on the range thing at all. Like yur saying running at 40/35 Youre saying hes opening with 40% of hands, so I put that into pokerstove 40% and get this 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

SO Im off base right from the get go but I dont have that 40% verses anything but Im sure even with the flop check 1/4 turn bet Id still not have a clue of anything, you outta start the LEARNING HOW TO READ by DUGGs thread
 
cdooley72

cdooley72

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2012
Total posts
517
Awards
1
Chips
0
DAMN Duggs you got all of that from that hand, that is ultra impressive and shows me I dont have a grip on the range thing at all. Like yur saying running at 40/35 Youre saying hes opening with 40% of hands, so I put that into pokerstove 40% and get this 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T9o

SO Im off base right from the get go but I dont have that 40% verses anything but Im sure even with the flop check 1/4 turn bet Id still not have a clue of anything, you outta start the LEARNING HOW TO READ by DUGGs thread

Agree with this. If you look at his 1k post it is pretty much this. But I think you are right. He should start a dedicated thread for it.

Thanks for the reply Duggs going to work on wrapping my brain around it.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
dont use his opening % to define his opening range, use it to infer the type of hands he is likely opening and then adjust that range based on position stacks sizes etc.
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
also its usually the case that opening UTG is tightest and SB is close to ATC when running at those stats (I say usually because some people like to widen their relative range from UTG compared to UTG+1 etc but its quite easy to tag.)
 
Poker Tips
Top