Online Poker As Main/Only Income

Are you putting to much pressure on yourself?

If you are considering playing online poker as your main or only source of income, or if you have already done so, are you putting to much pressure on yourself?

Have you taken into account the many different financial pitfalls APART from the actual ones at the tables?
Have you thought about ALL of the "hidden" costs you are likely to incur at regular times during your poker career, not to mention the irregular ones?

We all experience that horrible unforeseen expense that hits us hard in the face probably at least once a year throughout our adult lives. Nine times out of ten we didn't see it coming, and half of the time we don't have the whole amount of readily available cash to cover it.

Are the pressures of covering all of your household bills going to effect your game?
Have you covered all of the bases?


Expenses outside of poker you might want to consider
If applicable

Rent/Mortgage
Food
Utility Bills ...... Electric/Gas/Water/Waste Removal
Upkeep of your home .......... Repairs/Damage/Insurance
Car .......... Insurance/Service/Fuel/Upgrade
Life insurance/Medical/Dental
Pet expenses ........ Food/Insurance
Clothes
Other Family Members .......... Wife/Husband/Children and all of their needs ........ Education/Outside Activities/Entertainment etc etc

Then you must consider luxuries and treats for all. By that I don't mean extravagances, more a case of modern stuff we have all become accustomed to and take for granted.

All of the above is just regular stuff the average family in most cases expect day in, day out.
Then there's birthdays and Christmas and family holidays.

That's A Lot Of Pressure

I guess if you were a single person without all of those responsibilities then you might not feel the pressures of life expenses so much.

Maybe if you are killing the $100NL cash games and doing very well at $200NL and are in a dead end job and are single or have few responsibilities, then it might become more appealing.
It would still have it's pressures though, especially during a downswing period where it just isn't happening for you.

Also in most cases, people that make the transition want BETTER things for themselves and a BETTER quality of life. So it's going to be a hard road with a lot of stress and PRESSURE along the way ................. BE PREPEARED

I'm just learning the game, and trying to figure things out, but how is this pressure different than the pressures to make a living in a "normal" way? I spent last week at home sitting on my ass, and will spend the next two weeks doing the same because I work in a construction related industry and we have been canceled because of weather. You want to talk about stress, try paying the bills on an unemployment check.

I play for fun, and could understand how *having* to make money at the tables could get old after a while and take the fun out of things. But there are millions of people stressing their way through life.

how is this pressure different than the pressures to make a living in a "normal" way?

The "Normal" way makes it that if you turn up for work, you know you are going to get paid. Poker doesn't afford you that peace of mind.


I spent last week at home sitting on my ass, and will spend the next two weeks doing the same because I work in a construction related industry and we have been canceled because of weather. You want to talk about stress, try paying the bills on an unemployment check.

I've had to do the same many times and with the way things are these days, I can see myself doing it again. I hope the weather turns your way soon.

The thing about online poker as your job, the weather wont effect it ( mostly ) but by being able to go to work 365 days a year at the tables, that's 365 days a year where you can end up -$$ for going to work, that too, is pressure.


I play for fun, and could understand how *having* to make money at the tables could get old after a while and take the fun out of things. But there are millions of people stressing their way through life.[/quote]

Yup *having* to make money playing poker usually isn't a "fun" prospect. It comes with it's own unique pressures because "normal" day jobs guarantee an income when you clock in, poker doesn't.

So my question for you Crystal Blue is this, Do you or have you made Poker your ONLY source of income?

If so, what stage of life are you in (single, married, kids, house)?

If it is your primary source of income, fell like taking on a student for some free coaching lessons?

becomingpoker said:

So my question for you Crystal Blue is this, Do you or have you made Poker your ONLY source of income?

If so, what stage of life are you in (single, married, kids, house)?

If it is your primary source of income, fell like taking on a student for some free coaching lessons?

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Hi there, no I have not made poker my main source of income, far from it. The thread was more a case of highlighting the perils of not thinking through all of the financial burdens and pitfalls associated with say giving up a normal job to play poker full time.

As a tax Preperation professional you may want to consider the tax consequences of professional poker play. I have no professional clients but you would need to consider the consequences of profession vs hobby. As a profession your wins are netted against your losses and you would pay tax on differnce income tax and self employment taxes. Of course you can deduct any expenses associated with making those incomes. As a hobby your income is taxed at your top marginal tax rate and your losses are deductable on itemized deductions to the extent of your winnings.

It has been a while since i have looked into professional gambling but i beleive you need a federal liscense to be considered a pro gambler for tax purposes so irs nails you for your wins but may limit the losses deductable.

I am suprised that there is not withholding and other tax tracking going on at these sites. I generally report on my tax return any winnings I actually bank leaving everything else at the sites i play or the clearing account that i use to transfer money. Technically that clearing account should be considered income but i am going to chance it.

Talk to your CPA before you make a decision to quit your job.

As a pro your expenses to travel and play in tourneys would be deductable business expense as a hobby they would not.

interesting discussion

well I am very interested in your discussion because it effects me personally.
I am mid thirtys and have been a tradesman in the military for 20 years.
I am seriously considering leaving my job next year to play poker constant and see how i go.
I point that is worth making is that you need to find your niche in poker. Not everyone can play and win.
I have many mates that play tournys and win 1 for a couple of thousand dollars and boom. thats all they play. I am intrinsically crap at hold em tourneys and my stats pretty much indicate that but I have found a niche. I seem to be very good at omaha hilo limit.
Hmmm how can you make money out of that you say. Well I play lots of heads up and really only need to win 200 a day to earn about the same as i do now. I tried this over a three week period and was able to do it. I think the key is you cannot win consistantly unless you have a decent bankroll initially. That is where the pressure is. the declining bankroll. At the moment I play a little amount with xmas upon us but I would say to both of you that tournaments are a low percentage play. Like me maybe fund your tournament 'fun' with your niche when you find it.
gl at the tables.:icon_sant :icon_sant

Crystal Blue said:

That's A Lot Of Pressure

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Or just make sure you have a good cash reserve. If you have 6 months of rent/expenses plus a poker bankroll, all of a sudden it's not a huge deal if you have a bad week and you can bounce back a lot easier.

Crystal Blue said:

The "Normal" way makes it that if you turn up for work, you know you are going to get paid. Poker doesn't afford you that peace of mind.

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If you can win long-term, you are going to get paid. As much as I whine about running below ev, I know there will/have been days where I run hotter than the sun. Long-term if you have a poker bankroll plus expenses set aside the only time you don't get paid is if you don't play well.

Crystal Blue said:

Yup *having* to make money playing poker usually isn't a "fun" prospect. It comes with it's own unique pressures because "normal" day jobs guarantee an income when you clock in, poker doesn't.

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Neither is having to go into a day job and *having* to meet the deadline by Wednesday, get the report in to your boss, worry about meetings, etc. A day job isn't all fun and games, and usually it's quite boring (I know my mom has said she wishes she could just work steady through for 5 hours instead of what equates to like 5 hours of work and 3 hours of talking/lunch/socializing).

Obviously poker as a hobby is more fun than poker as a job. But are you arguing that a 9-to-5 is more fun than poker as a job? If you've got the backup and the skillset, I'd argue you're wrong. The biggest benefit is that you can take a few days off while still going in and it won't affect your paycheck. Show up to work playing poker hungover, tired, just not in it, and your paycheck suffers. Other than that though I'm not sure I can find one thing better about a 9-to-5.

Also note that nothing is guaranteed. My dad worked for the same company for 10+ years. Just last year they told him they still wanted him, but couldn't find him work to do, so he got laid off. Nothing is guaranteed.

thetaxman1 said:

It has been a while since i have looked into professional gambling but i beleive you need a federal liscense to be considered a pro gambler for tax purposes so irs nails you for your wins but may limit the losses deductable.

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I'm not a tax professional but everything I've heard says this is wrong. Pretty sure there's no federal license.

thetaxman1 said:

As a tax Preperation professional you may want to consider the tax consequences of professional poker play. I have no professional clients but you would need to consider the consequences of profession vs hobby. As a profession your wins are netted against your losses and you would pay tax on differnce income tax and self employment taxes. Of course you can deduct any expenses associated with making those incomes. As a hobby your income is taxed at your top marginal tax rate and your losses are deductable on itemized deductions to the extent of your winnings.

It has been a while since i have looked into professional gambling but i beleive you need a federal liscense to be considered a pro gambler for tax purposes so irs nails you for your wins but may limit the losses deductable.

I am suprised that there is not withholding and other tax tracking going on at these sites. I generally report on my tax return any winnings I actually bank leaving everything else at the sites i play or the clearing account that i use to transfer money. Technically that clearing account should be considered income but i am going to chance it.

Talk to your CPA before you make a decision to quit your job.

As a pro your expenses to travel and play in tourneys would be deductable business expense as a hobby they would not.

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Yeah you make some good points there. I deliberately left out the tax implications because "online" poker is a worldwide activity and different rules apply in different countries.

Also, depending on where you are located and the laws of your land, not all full time online poker players would feel inclined to register as a professional gambler/poker player.

Obviously, if you are going to prepare in the right way and intend on being very serious about taking poker on full time, then it's correct to declare your occupation and earnings etc.

Personally, I am not a great lover of the term "professional" gambler/poker player unless you are high profile or a known player.
If I flip burgers for a living I am not a professional burger flipper but I am a full time burger flipper.

In some countries the burden of paying tax on say "betting" has been moved from the bettor, to the establishment taking the bet. Thus leaving the bettor free from paying tax. Obviously this is different from country to country but you see what I mean.

I was really suprised usa went to bank regs rather than irs regs to go after poker industry. They would have slowed down a lot of people by threat of audit. Of course it wouldnt affect the donks much but the good players would have another bite out of their pie.

Being a professional would cost a little bit more but would allow many more deductions such as deducting internet, training cost, and trips to tourneys and other cost directly associated to making that income. As a hobby those expenses go away to a great extent.
If you were to incorporate your business you could also have benefits and pay your self a wage. Hmmm I may have to explore this aspect some more.

zachvac said:

Also note that nothing is guaranteed. .

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A full time poker job that gives you a regular comfortable income fits in with this statement.

zachvac said:

Obviously poker as a hobby is more fun than poker as a job. But are you arguing that a 9-to-5 is more fun than poker as a job?

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I don't recall stating that either a poker job, or a 9-5 job was fun.


I think you are missing the whole point of my OP. My intentions with creating this thread is to perhaps make people stop and think before taking the leap.
I am by no means suggestion they shouldn't go for it.

Trying to give them an insight of the expenses they might experience that are outside of their direct poker costs is my aim here.
The way I see it, it goes without saying, anyone intending playing poker full time will have their bankrolls in order and will be confident with their skill-set. If they don't, they are on a hiding to nothing.

I believe I am already achieving my objective in some way by reading Aussieguru's post stating that he was considering taking poker up full time and that this thread got him to thinking.

I started this thread asking "Are you putting to much pressure on yourself?" and I finished it by saying "BE PREPEARED".
My aim is purely a "Think it through completely before acting" discussion.

It was prompted by an unsuccessful and very sad tale of woe a good friend of mine just went through. A superb poker player, but a lousy planner.

I think by saying that it's all pretty standard and should be no problem for someone with the roll and the skill-set, is sending out the wrong message.

thetaxman1 said:

I was really suprised usa went to bank regs rather than irs regs to go after poker industry.

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Well it's legal to play poker, the executive can't simply enforce a law that doesn't exist. The UIGEA on the other hand is already on the books and the regs were to further enforce that bill.

Crystal Blue said:

I don't recall stating that either a poker job, or a 9-5 job was fun.


I think you are missing the whole point of my OP. My intentions with creating this thread is to perhaps make people stop and think before taking the leap.
I am by no means suggestion they shouldn't go for it.

Trying to give them an insight of the expenses they might experience that are outside of their direct poker costs is my aim here.
The way I see it, it goes without saying, anyone intending playing poker full time will have their bankrolls in order and will be confident with their skill-set. If they don't, they are on a hiding to nothing.

I believe I am already achieving my objective in some way by reading Aussieguru's post stating that he was considering taking poker up full time and that this thread got him to thinking.

I started this thread asking "Are you putting to much pressure on yourself?" and I finished it by saying "BE PREPEARED".
My aim is purely a "Think it through completely before acting" discussion.

It was prompted by an unsuccessful and very sad tale of woe a good friend of mine just went through. A superb poker player, but a lousy planner.

I think by saying that it's all pretty standard and should be no problem for someone with the roll and the skill-set, is sending out the wrong message.

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Sorry I wasn't disagreeing with your OP, simply stating that although you're right, on the other hand if someone has thought this through it can be a good decision as well. Sounds like we agree on this .

Another thing to note is that although if you have a steady paycheck you can probably get a loan, most banks wouldn't see poker as a steady income thus you'd have a tough time getting a loan.

But if you have money in the bank and in the bankroll, have a back-up plan if you fail, and don't have many dependents (not that dependents would stop you but I think you'd need more of a cushion if you have a spouse and/or children relying on you to pay the bills), and obviously are good enough at poker, I'd give it a shot. I am anyway, so maybe I'll change my mind in a few weeks. Just wanted to say that I know several online pros who love their job, love the freedom, and aren't worrying every month on whether they'll be able to pay rent. If you can do it and if you have the self-discipline (because there's no boss, you've gotta encourage yourself), I think it can be a great job. But I agree definitely consider the things mentioned in the OP before just deciding one day that work sucks and you want to play poker.

I have been playing poker online and live as a profession for nearly 2 years now.
And yes i agree it is alot of pressure to indure throughout the year.
luckly for me my girlfiend is very forgiving and supportive during "the bad times".

Zach,
You are going for it yourself? Cool, I wish you every success and hope that you realise all of your dreams and expectations.
You appear to be a level headed person and someone who has thought the whole thing out so that's all good.

Hope to see you on TV sometime soon in the future ripping the whole thing apart.

My cash game backers all do this for a living. $50-125k per yr

Having friends that do freelance work, many of the same concerns they have exist in the life of a full time poker player. Being smart financially and have a reserve is not unique to being a poker player. No one's job is completely secure. Especially in the current economic conditions.

What poker does afford you that a 9 to 5 does not, is more control over your destiny. No one can stop you from playing if you want to. The opportunity to make money is always there. You don't need a client or a customer. With that said your skills will have a direct impact on your success. (This is not always true at the "normal" job")

Admittedly people need to think seriously before making major life changes. But I doubt full time poker really presents a unique set of circumstances.

Just my take.

I consider poker as my investment

I both haven't been playing long enough and am not good enough to even think about playing poker as a living. However, with all things, I see a lot of people rush into doing something they think is fun "full time". To me I never saw the sense of urgency. Why not keep your job and play poker on the side? Or work part-time and play poker part-time? Why take something you enjoy and force yourself to do it for 8+ hours every day to feed and shelter yourself?

Maybe I'm biased because I enjoy my job...

Another thing I would add to the OP's list to think about is, are you willing to actually put in the work and be a student of the game? If you're going to make it a profession, hours upon hours upon hours of studying the game are required to make a decent wage year after year. I would never consider making this my full time profession until I had thoroughly read pretty much every book there is out there, and I would always be trying to understand the math/psychology involved in poker at another level to gain every edge possible. Look at Tom Dwan, mathematical wizard who understands exactly why his money is going in the pot at every point during the hand. This is a guy who will make a decent wage year after year by playing online against players who understand less than he does.

Crystal Blue said:

It was prompted by an unsuccessful and very sad tale of woe a good friend of mine just went through. A superb poker player, but a lousy planner.

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I don't mean to sound mean, but there are always a few that ruin it for everyone else. What I'm saying is that tales of woe often end up affecting others in unintended ways. I've seen statements from some of our Senators saying that the reason they vote against pro-poker legislation is because they have "family friends" who have been ruined, or they feel the need to "protect" the nation's college-aged youths from falling into poker madness.

People (adults) should be allowed to make their own decisions. Of course, some will make poor ones, but let's not punish the rest. The point of your OP is well-taken; be the one who thinks things through carefully and acts accordingly, not the one who makes these decisions on a lark and acts rashly.

I'm not gonna lie, I would love to go pro. I think it would be a lot more exhilarating than my current job, and there's a higher top-end as well. But I don't plan on making the attempt until I have built up enough money, in addition to my normal bankroll, to maintain my current lifestyle for several months. That will give me a cushion so there won't be as much pressure (at least at first), and it will also give me time to find a real job again in case the poker thing doesn't end up working out.

With online poker, there is no need to "risk" your lifestyle to see if you can make it as a pro. If you truly want to "take your shot", do it part time with money you can afford to lose.
Keep stats, records, review your play, read, learn and once you are beating 200NL on a regular basis, then you can start to think about it. Until that time, treat it as any other passionate passtime.

Well there's PRO making money and there's PRO investing money. I am investing time and money but only just breaking even. Hope to hit a large pool tourney to move up in buyin to hit a bigger CASH. Staying within my bankroll affordability is my main goal for present. Of course, avoiding as many bad beats as possible!!
Peace,
FLOW
PS If you don't love tha game, STOP PLAYING IT!!

There are many great posts in this thread. It pleases me that people have lots to say on this subject.
It is a serious one, kudos to all.