online poker

After playing mostly online poker for the past 4 years, I figure I'm at best an ave. player.
While I'm still up over all, I would be down over 3k without a hell of a run of cards in a deep stack $30 trny.

What I haven't been able to really figure out is the level (buy in amounts) that I am at skill wise. I have never really been a big gambler, so I never have put more than $50 in a poker account. So if I'm following BR rules (which I didn't early, but have been better lately) it only allows me to play the micros.

I can't consistantly beat the micro levels if someone held a gun to my head. My ring game is beyond pathetic, so I RARELY put anything in ring games unless I feel burnt out on STT or MTT. I KNOW I am better than 80% of the MTT and STT players at the micros. I don't play rags out of position, I am able to recognize when someone has a better hand (most of the time), and I RARELY get it in with the worst hand. I actually went back and checked my hand history a couple of times and I could see the progression(sp) I was making by not going all in with the worst hand. While I didn't write anything down, I think I was the fav. PF when I moved all in something around 75% of the time. But, for reasons I can't seam to figure out yet, I can't build a bankroll to move out of the micros.

Sorry for the ramble, but I have questions I would like opinions/answers to.

1. I don't play that many hands in a year. I was under 40k in 3 years. Am I off base thinking that I need to play more hands to reduce variance?

2.Would software like PT3 or HEM help me that much? I take notes as best I can, but when I see things like values for V$P (or whatever it is) with agression values, these are things that I don't see well and don't know how to take good notes on. ( mine are generic L/T agro, you know)

3. I've seen some thing for online poker schools. Are they worth it? The one I'm thinking about is SEAN MORONSE. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

I don't have a big sample to go from, all I know is the 3 trnys I played out of my BR, $30, and 2 $50's I played what I consider very ABC poker and easily was ITM. I do recognize the $30 was an unreal run of cards. But the other 2 were your run of the mill trnys. nothing special about them. Just played a simple game.

Again, sorry for the book, I welcome all opinions. Thanks

crow27 said:

1. I don't play that many hands in a year. I was under 40k in 3 years. Am I off base thinking that I need to play more hands to reduce variance?

2.Would software like PT3 or HEM help me that much? I take notes as best I can, but when I see things like values for V$P (or whatever it is) with agression values, these are things that I don't see well and don't know how to take good notes on. ( mine are generic L/T agro, you know)

3. I've seen some thing for online poker schools. Are they worth it? The one I'm thinking about is SEAN MORONSE. Does anyone have an opinion on this?


Again, sorry for the book, I welcome all opinions. Thanks

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1. Play the amount you feel comfortable/enjoy playing. don't force it

2. Use tracking software to review your play not for the HUD, I recomend getting it. they have low stakes versions now.

3. Training can be helpful and speed up learning. If you dont play alot I dont know how useful it will be

crow27 said:

I can't consistantly beat the micro levels if someone held a gun to my head. My ring game is beyond pathetic, so I RARELY put anything in ring games unless I feel burnt out on STT or MTT.
I KNOW I am better than 80% of the MTT and STT players at the micros. I don't play rags out of position, I am able to recognize when someone has a better hand (most of the time), and I RARELY get it in with the worst hand. I actually went back and checked my hand history a couple of times and I could see the progression(sp) I was making by not going all in with the worst hand. While I didn't write anything down, I think I was the fav. PF when I moved all in something around 75% of the time. But, for reasons I can't seam to figure out yet, I can't build a bankroll to move out of the micros.

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No offense, but with statements like these...are you serious.!?

Hey RichKo, what's wrong with saying what I feel? Maybe the only word I could change is I FEEL STRONGLY I'm better than or know more than 80% of the micro STT and MTT players.
My point was that while I know I have alot more to learn about poker AS A WHOLE, I feel that my level of knowledge of the game is ALOT farther along than MOST of the players at the micro levels, but, for reasons I can't grasp YET, I can't build a BR to move out of the lowest levels.

By the way, just because I welcome all opinions, if that's the best you can think of, save the immature BS. Come with something constructive or maybe an idea or 2 that I haven't thought of. OR better yet, if you're good enough to make that kind of a statement to me when I'm asking for help, be a man and tell all of us how you built your BR from little or nothing to move up and out of the micros. Don't forget to be very detailed so the rest of us idiots have something to study and work on.

bigjoker66 said:

1. Play the amount you feel comfortable/enjoy playing. don't force it

2. Use tracking software to review your play not for the HUD, I recomend getting it. they have low stakes versions now.

3. Training can be helpful and speed up learning. If you dont play alot I dont know how useful it will be

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I'm to the point where when ever I get knocked out of a real money trny, I'll go back to the point where I got crippled or knocked out and see if I could/should have done anything different. I do understand when I make a real stupid mistake, but I don't know if I always understand a move or fold that maybe I really should have made at what usually turns out to be a critical spot for my trny life. I think I'm either too agro at the wrong time or too soft.

ANY tips for trying to figure that out LOL

crow27 said:

1. I don't play that many hands in a year. I was under 40k in 3 years. Am I off base thinking that I need to play more hands to reduce variance?

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Yes. You're off base thinking that, at least as I understand your question. Whether you play 40,000 hands in 3 years, or 3 months your variance will be the same. More hands mean your overall results tend closer to your real win rate, but the time period over which you play them doesn't matter.

2.Would software like PT3 or HEM help me that much?

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I think so. If nothing else, it levels the playing field.

No idea on the schools. Never used one.

BTW, RichKo's advice is not immature BS. Saying you can't beat micros and are in the top 20% of players is...unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely. That's actually useful advice that you may wish to consider. If you're in the top 20%, you should be playing well (and probably be winning). If you're not, you have things about your game you need to fix. I would suggest that knowing which side of that line you fall on helps you, even if you don't like the answer.

RF

You write a lot, and for good reason. You're experiencing many of the same issues as most beginning players who haven't really yet figured the whole poker thing out. I could write for a while, but the short version is this:

Read this thread: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/

Secondly, multi-table tournaments aren't a good thing to start with, especially when you're not playing very many hands. You think you're an awesome tournament player, but you really haven't played enough to know for sure. You need a game that has less variance, and gives you feedback faster that you're doing well/poorly.

I'd suggest switching to single table SnG's (or cash games), mixing in some of the juicy multi-table tournaments (when they have overlay, or are especially soft, like a $20 FTOPS event, or a satty to a big tourney). The SnG's will give you quicker feedback on your skills because it won't take 500 MTT's to give you a good sample size.

I'm not really a tournament player, but FWIW, you don't talk about situations like your game is super strong. Post some hands in the hand analysis forum that you thought were tricky, and I'm betting the people who post there should be able to find some leaks in your game.

Don't worry about the coaching sites or tracking software that you have to pay for yet. You're likely not at the point where you would get that much out of it that you couldn't get from this forum for free.

I'm not being a Dick, It's just that anyone who says OH I'm GREAT...which is pretty much what you're saying when you say I'm Top 80%.....please. Check the ego.

If you would be down 3k without that saving grace of a SINGLE MTT result, you are NOT a winning player (or better than 80% of the micro players). There is a reason you are spewing money.

I would greatly recommend getting the 60 day trial of PT3. After the 60 days are up, you can get the microstakes version for $45.

If you have the money, your #3 point is also very valuable. A subscription to DeucesCracked is fairly inexpensive, or, even better, scout out a uNL coach. If you need help finding a coach, send me a PM and I should be able to help you out.

Don't be so defensive. If you really want to get better at this game, it takes a lot of hard work and time. Everyone here is more than willing to help out, but you have to be willing to take some criticism along the way!

OK maybe I worded the first part of my original post wrong. I'll try one more time.

I really believe that I have more of an understanding of poker than 80% of the players that I see at the micros. Now, I'm not at all saying that I'm a great player. Not even close. If I were, I wouldn't be at my job. But I can say that I don't see myself making the same wild and stupid moves that I see 80% of the micro players make. Maybe that's where my troubles lie, if I'm having trouble applying what I know, what would the next step be?
By the way, thanks for the input.

Well, the only way to get better is to keep playing -- but also making sure you are playing correctly. DeucesCracked has a week (?) free membership that you can get. I really suggest TubaSteve's videos; they have helped me greatly.

Again, PT3 is invaluable in understanding where you have leaks and how to fix them. There is myriad of information out there on the webs (and on this forum) on how to use the software to your advantage.

Congrats on putting it all the line regarding your doubts and be able to ask for help. It would appear though that too much info opened you up for some personal criticism. Anyone with an ego problem would never admit to their shortcomings. It's fortunate that many members came forward with understanding, good ideas and quality recommendations. Many of us who play online poker find themselves in a similar situation as you. Most would never admit to it. And everyone eventually starts having serious doubts about their ability in some area of their life. Sounds to me like you have the ability, heart, and willingness to work hard to improve. Perhaps at this time the only thing missing is CONFIDENCE!

crow27 said:

OK maybe I worded the first part of my original post wrong. I'll try one more time.

I really believe that I have more of an understanding of poker than 80% of the players that I see at the micros. Now, I'm not at all saying that I'm a great player. Not even close. If I were, I wouldn't be at my job. But I can say that I don't see myself making the same wild and stupid moves that I see 80% of the micro players make. Maybe that's where my troubles lie, if I'm having trouble applying what I know, what would the next step be?
By the way, thanks for the input.

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Join a training site that has MTT & SNG vids. (btw.. not DeucesCracked unless you're interested in playing cash tables which you've clearly stated you aren't.... not that deepstack cash play wouldn't help out the MTT play, I just think you'd be far better off on a MTT SNG specific site).
As far as the poster saying you're not a level where a site like that would be beneficial. I STRONGLY disagree. I actually feel they'd be great for someone with a foundation on the game & desiring to learn the things you're talking about (which by the way will come over time as your intution is developed). Watching how these same scnerarios are played by proven winning players (and ones who have a knack for teaching), listening to them sweat other's tourneys (pointing out mistakes & missed oppurtunities) will translate into your own game in a big way.

Personally it's very rare that I'll see a HH for MTT or SNG play posted here on CC that isn't just ABC stuff (although it's always nice to read other's perspectives, delving into why they play the way they play, why they do what they do).

As far as consistently beating the micros goes. I've done okay but personally don't have the patience for it (and find it pretty boring).
Join a training site (or get ahold of some vids.) try to hook up with peers to discuss HH's etc.
GL!

OH yah... & pick up another game... ie. the 45's or 27's (SNG). This is what alot of the MTT regs. use as their bread & butter game & typically you'll find some a small handful of really good players who are playing them, mixed in with alot of bad players. THey can be quite profitable but of course you need to be prepared for 10game+ losing streaks. (I've seen many players in the 45's & 27's, playing just $5 & more often $10 buyin level who are up $2k to $10k from playing MTT SNG's).
I wouldn't recommend playing STT SNG for practising MTT play. A decent background in STT SNG will help you when transitioning to the 45's & 27's but I believe there's alot more money to be made playing these as opposed to the STT (9plyr. & 10plyr).

It's a long slow grind to becoming an online MTT player who can regularly be playing the $30-$50 buyin level (good MTT players suggest you have 100buyins for the buyin level you're playing at & it's not uncommon for them to go for 50-80 game stretches with little or no cashes).
Grind it out, then maybe consider getting staked if your stats. are good enough for it (or if you're able to hook up with a group of players who believe in backing your game... getting hooked up with a group of good MTT regs. is also key imo... not the easiest to do but I think alot easier if you get a membership on some of the poker training sites (although alot of the bigger ones are pretty impersonal).
Coaching is another possibilty. Sometimes you'll come across coaching deals where 'coach' will require a deposit, then will take a cut of your winnings over a period of time with other stuff like 'an invite into their circle of friends' (< which can sometimes be more valuable than the coaching sessions).