Odds, Money, Players and End Results

I don't know maybe I can be called a Eccentric player or what ever.Yeah I play outside the box and yeah I have been one of the lucky players who can claim to be way ahead........but after reading these boards for the past year or so I have come to a few conclustions...........

First no matter how much proper studing you do in the finer art of poker play.....the odds don't mean shit against many players.."Fish"

Second calling someone a fish makes you feel better it does not make them a fish......when someone calls you down and shows Jack high to your full house then you can call them a " Fish " untll then your just a cry baby

Third......the way you schooled poker players play is not the way the real world plays.so don't get dissapointed when you lose lose lose to people who could give a **** about your odds calculaotor.........


Fourth........ Try to remember that tells are a get big part of poker....oops most of you play on-line sorry..........Anyway tells are more than 50% of the reason many players makes raises and push people around

And finnaly..........poker is supposed to be fun.........then you win. Please try and take it easy people


Poker is not a great big math problem you need to learn to figure out. It is a great big monster that will eat your stack and puke it back on you

:top:

I think you've managed to summarize and express many peoples' feelings in your post above. While I would have said a couple things a little different, I do essentially agree with everything you said.

More and more, this board is starting to become about the super posters being right and everyone else is wrong, regardless of opinion (and God help you if you disagree too vehemently). That's too bad, though. The idea here should be expression and exchange of ideas, requests for input, comraderie, etc. Unfortuneatly, what we are starting to see is people saying this or that about people not in their inner circle and how bad this or that is or how stupid. That is not constructive.

Having said that, there are plenty here that won't like (or agree with) what you've posted, so be ready to duck as the retaliation is likely to begin shortly (I'm sorry to say).

Oh thats Ok

This thread it kinda like a dinner bell for the cows.....LOL


Just kidding..............lmao


But yes I have noticed that there are to many people who are stuck on the " Proper Odds Way of Things ". in fact It is somewhat silly if you asked me but I suppose it may be from all the on-line play these people see....Real Live play teaches you sooooo much more about how to earn cash in poker and it earns you alot more if you ask me. Sure is a heck of a lot funnier I can tell you that.

Toadly, I will confess I don't spend all my free time in the hand analysis section so can't argue 1 way or another about the general tone around here. There are, it is true, people here who have strong opinions & who are quite fond of them but, having said that one of the remarkable things about this site for me is the general civility of the folks involved. The numbers are a large part of poker & ignoring that aspect of the game will in the long run keep you, or anyone for that matter, from reaching their full potential as a poker player. That havin been said even in online poker the numbers are only a part of the decision making process. I lose to some of the better players on this site on a too regular basis & instinct, gut feelings or whatever you want to call them factor into their play game in & game out. My guess is if you would play with some of the regulars around here you would find not a bunch of tightassed know it alls but a large group of competent, friendly, fun seeking folks playing to have a good time as well as to improve their games. This of course does not include ChuckT, but he is Canadian & you know how those guys are eh. Anyway, hope you keep tossing your opinions into the mix, I enjoy hearing from folks who have the opportunity to play live and or who have different prespectives on how one might play the game. If I get a chance I will ask Dorkus & Juicee not to ban you for this act of blatant rebellion, although listening to a thong wearin crossdresser probably isn't how you get to be a Mod. See you at the tables.

Kenzie 96 said:

I will ask Dorkus & Juicee not to ban you for this act of blatant rebellion, although listening to a thong wearin crossdresser probably isn't how you get to be a Mod. See you at the tables.

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:laugh: Don't worry, he's not going anywhere. I too enjoy a fresh perspective (although your tone may seem a bit abrasive to some).

My opinion on the subject is that yes, odds do play a part in the game. But I think that everyone will agree that odds and reading the players go hand and hand. I do think that it's possible to "over think" a situation to your detriment.

It is the ones who play outside the box that infuriate the ones who do. They are the ones who you can't figure out why they do what they do but still take your money.

I agree that the math is a large part of online games. You can do well just playing the math part of the game if all you do is sit in front of your computer. Math is only a part of live games.

It sounds like you play alot live like I do. Live, I could care less what my cards are as much as who is in the hand. You get caught with your hands in the cookie jar live and it is a long walk to the rail vs to the frig to grab another beer before you reload or find another table online.

To reply to your reasoning:
1) Fish defined - 10 second memory players that don't recall what you or anyone else did the last hand. Fancy moves (shiny bait) don't work because they don't know what they are looking at.

2) Calling someone a fish only makes you feel better when they have taken all your money when they out chased you or you just made them go broke on a bad call. WE ALL make bad calls sooner or later so somewhere out there someone thinks YOU are a fish.

3) Schooled players do well against other schooled player. Most players are not patient enough to wait for that one shining moment to stomp on the unschooled or unconventional players. The one thing that reading does not teach is patience. When they finally do hit that big hand they are usually only winning back the money the "fish" has already taken from them.

4) Tells are important and can be a big part of the live game and can help you win some big hands. They can also can make you look like fish/donkey when wrong so beware. You make a strange call based on a read or tell and you will look stupid when you miss but a genius when you hit. So don't be quick to label people quickly at a table.

If I had more time I would being playing some of you around here......and very well may. But right now the time required to do that is far beone what I can offer...............I have just taken a new job as a Project Manager/ Plant Manager for one of Las Vegas largest Architectural Fabrication houses. So the time I would be playing poker is gonna be spent in here for awhile......talking poker.

My new job, here check out the place

www.aametals.com

Look at it this way; if you don't play by the odds, you aren't giving yourself every tool possible to be a potentially better player. Yes reads and bluffing are a HUGE part of poker, but they're not the only part of it.

You also have to keep in mind that most of the hands we talk about in the HH section are from online poker, which as you know is much different from live poker - not that live poker doesn't involve odds aswell, it's just that online, you don't have the same reads available, so you rely much more on the maths behind the cards.

I used to play completely ignoring the odds; I didn't even know what they were. In fact I'm still only just learning to calculate them 'on the spot'. I was still successful. I was pretty damn successful, if you ask me - I built a very solid bankroll without depositing a cent.

You can still be successful by ignoring the odds to a degree, or maybe even fully, but by not using them you are depriving yourself of one of (if not the) the most valuable tools in the game. Why do you think you see all the pros - people who make 10s of thousands, 100s of thousands and millions a year playing poker - writing books about poker play and most of them are based on odds? Look at Harrington for example; a guy who has multiple times reached the final table of the ME, bases his game completely on odds.

You talk about poker being all about reads; say I have KJ of spades, and the board shows 8sTs2h and my opponent bets an amount that is giving me bad odds. Of course the odds mean nothing if I know my opponent to be an aggressive player who bets more than the pot every hand (of course an exaggerated example). I might push in this situation; of course the odds don't dictate that, but that's what I feel might win me the pot.

Likewise to ignoring odds, if you ignore your reads and mental notes on a player, you are also depriving yourself of a major tool that will make you a hugely better player. IMO, it's all about balance.

Thanks you have put this entire thread into " Balance ".....................Nice job


I have never played without knowing the oods...I just don't lean on them like it's my own personal Jesus...I don't use my Odds Calculator every hand......A year or so ago was the last time I even opened it up. I have a talent for figuring a estimation on my odds in any givin hand.....When You can see a pile of actual chips in front of you ..A big stack better, a small stack not so better..what are the other players doing.....Not quite that simple but you get the idea

Toadly said:

Thanks you have put this entire thread into " Balance ".....................Nice job


I have never played without knowing the oods...I just don't lean on them like it's my own personal Jesus...I don't use my Odds Calculator every hand......A year or so ago was the last time I even opened it up. I have a talent for figuring a estimation on my odds in any givin hand.....When You can see a pile of actual chips in front of you ..A big stack better, a small stack not so better..what are the other players doing.....Not quite that simple but you get the idea

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I never use an odds calculator.. I try to calculate them in my head by keeping it simple with the 4 and 2 rule.. I admit I will make a pot bet or more if I see a flush or a straight showing on the board no matter what or how many opponents I have in the hand with me. Which by the way is and always will be a flaw with me.. I bet aggresively when I think, and/or know I have a hand. I don't dilly dally around when I think I have a hand..
I am one that will roll the dice especially when I know I am favorite to win.
Which is why I know I do better in MTT's then any other hold-em game.
I do ok in sit n go's, decent in ring games, suck at limit(still learning the diffrent aspects of limit compared to no limit), do pretty good in 7 card stud. Yet like you I am still learning and he will probably fall over once I say this "I have learnt a few things thanks to dorkus". We both may never ever be on the same page at times or agree but without some of his naturistic opinions and well tuned advice. I wouldn't be the player I am today without it.

*Blush*

You should be happy I've just changed my sig quotes, otherwise that would be in there in a flash.

Toadly said:

Second calling someone a fish makes you feel better it does not make them a fish......when someone calls you down and shows Jack high to your full house then you can call them a " Fish " untll then your just a cry baby

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Toadly said:

You knw who plays like a huge fish ??? Gus Hansen

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nuff said