Nth Level Thinking

Ezekiel162

Ezekiel162

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I know the progression goes somewhat like this:

What do I have?
What might he have?
What does he THINK I have?
etc...

I've been modifying my aggression levels as of late and taking more chances to attempt more bluffs/steals and have found myself scrutinizing opponents more (than normal anyway...) to see if I can get away with it. I've found it interesting when I start going "Hmm... I could attempt to push this 22 by him, seeing that he knows I'm normally TAG but other players have already stolen from him too often, and... so he might..."

Please regard above example as just that.. an example... whether good or bad...

Do some members find themselves relying on their cards or the players more and how far have most of you gone with this?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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It really depends. At micro stakes most player aren't thinking about anything more than their 2 cards. Trying to level tham beyond basic hand reading is a mistake. Just think about what they have because they're not really thinking about what you might have.
 
Ezekiel162

Ezekiel162

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Yeah I guess... I just don't like to leave anything for chance though.

I mean I'm playing micro (well virtually anyway as my last attempt didn't fare so well. lol...) and I utilize it, but, mainly for the players I sense might be doing it or when I get down to the last few.

I do see your point though. I think Negreanu stated something like "...When you try to bluff/outplay fish you become a fish yourself..." or something to that effect. I'm still gonna practice it though, in case I ever need to use it at some point... Other comments anyone?
 
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baudib1

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Just try to think on Level 2 for the most part, "What does my opponent have?" Think about people's ranges all the time and get a good handle on how that player plays certain ranges on certain boards, etc.

As you play that player more, or players of that profile more, you will get a feel for what they are doing, and why. When you see a hand at showdown that completely shocks you, readjust your range assessment and think about why he/she played that hand that way.

As you gain more experience, it will become clear who the thinking players are. Now you start thinking about your own range and why you are playing it this way, and if you are playing it optimally.

If you find you are playing against a thinking player and realize you are playing your range face up in certain spots, think about what you need to do to adjust. I.E. if he looks you up when you take a bet/check/bet line with third pair, then take that line with second pair. If he never pays you off when you go bet/bet/shove with a set, then widen your triple-barrel range, weighted toward air. Etc.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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When you say "get down to the last few" I am assuming you play mainly tourneys??
 
Ezekiel162

Ezekiel162

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players. I normally play STT SNGs...
 
Ezekiel162

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Also, If you attempt to profile a player's range do you do this for the whole table or like start with the 2 players on each side of you and then expand as you get better with reading, Baudib? Sometimes it gets a little complex for me if I'm not taking notes... I can just imagine how it must be playing live... But then I guess It might be easier when you have actual faces to associate with?
 
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baudib1

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If you're playing SNGs it's a little bit different as I think "leveling" generally (but not always) involves postflop play. In SNGs you mostly want to learn how to play the bubble and to exploit people who fold too much or call too light and people who limp-fold with 10 BBs.

As for profiling, it just takes time and practice. Start by trying to put people on ranges in any hand you're dealt, whether you play it or not. Try to guess whose range is stronger given the flop texture. When hands get to showdown, take note and see if you were correct.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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umm might be stealing this from baudib but you want to be putting everyone who's VPIP on ranges really..
 
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baudib1

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Here's a good example of leveling by Vanessa Selbst. Go to about 29:25 or so. Vanessa is a good hand-reader and this hand really illustrates the problem of flat-calling a hand like TT OOP (he has effectively capped his range with a medium-strength hand) vs. an aggressive player who can hand-read.

 
Ezekiel162

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Thanks for the Vid Baudib (rhymes actually... lol...). Definitely refreshing. It made me realize what I haven't been doing lately. WATCHING good poker instead of playing or reading about it all the time. I'm taking everyone's suggestions about mainly sticking to the level of "what might they have" because I agree that most players at low-limits aren't really thinking beyond that.

umm might be stealing this from baudib but you want to be putting everyone who's VPIP on ranges really..

Good point. Since Carbon came out with their new HUD I've been using it more to place players' approx ranges by ranges by VPIP, approx knowledge of bet-sizing/aggression by PFR, etc... Plus the stats saves me time in figuring the players out w/o using so much observation.

Most of the forum members here seem like they play higher limits as well. Any use for the more advanced levels of thinking there?
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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Ezekiel162;1893381 Most of the forum members here seem like they play higher limits as well. [/quote said:
Not necessarily. I think a few play SS and maybe MS (live) but mot online players here are MS players, SS at most.
 
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