Is NLHE the worst game to grind?

I've spent over 10 years making steady profits at blackjack and limit hold em - For 15 years I was a 4 handicap at golf and could beat everyone I played at pool. Now for about two years I am mostly playing NLHE tourneys when I play live and I feel I am wasting my time. I live in Michigan now as opposed to Florida so only golf half the year and the pool shooters either have no chance to beat me or they are good enough to be professionals and I don't play them.

For the 1st year of playing tourneys I cashed well over 60 pct of the time and while I can't say I enjoyed myself at least I enjoyed winning. These small stakes tourneys 45 - 100 dollar buy ins have such terrible blind structures that everyone has about 10 blinds at the final table or when you get down to 5 players. Now I only play about twice a month because there is no real challenge - the players are horrible but the structures mean luck is a predominant factor- my last 4 tourneys I have been all in with KK preflop against a dominated hand AJ AK JJ and K9 and lost all 4 times two min cashes and twice out in 9th.

I always enjoyed making a steady weekly profit at limit hold em and blackjack where NLHE cash games there are always going to be swings to your bankroll. My 1st year I played cash games about 3 times a week and had a 7 grand profit - not a lot but better than losing - the cash game at my local cardroom is now made up of 4 or 5 semi professionals who travel the mid stakes poker tours and have had wins for over 100k some rich doctors and retired businessman and very few soft spots -- when I first started playing at this room there would be 3 tables to choose from and always a very soft table - now all those players have disappeared and there is usually only one table that doesn't open til about 630pm.

So here are my options - Im going to start grinding cash after taking a week or two for rest and relaxation. If things aren't going well, move Florida or Vegas to play mixed games. Obviously, I can play Omaha hi lo and limit hold em online and I do but my profits have never matched live earnings and I suspect at the micros where I play there are bots that I have to play against. Anyway thanks for letting me rant, I feel a little better after playing a tourney last night live - being down to 9k chips - running it up to 55k and being all in with KK pre flop only to be all out.

The pool analogy works quite well when comparing to NLHE. Limit Poker is the traditional grinder game. You are betting your knowledge of the laws of probability and using a long run approach to average a steady amount of profit in terms of the limits in which you play. (big bets per hour) NLHE is more of a better player exploiting the deficiencies of a less proficient player's weaknesses to take as much of the lesser players money as possible. The problem of grinding the NLHE tables is that the gap between players abilities is not as pronounced as it once was. Just as the willingness of finding pool players to play much better players recedes in the same fashion. The gap which currently exists and where a superior player can clean up more easily than NLHE is pot limit omaha. Finding a decent game online is a problem for an American player, but I think that is where the money is at the moment.

The micros have gotta so much better player wise, which makes it a lot harder to grind micros. Usually you can identify which players are bots and destroy them which is pretty fun.

Can i ask how you were making profit playing Blackjack?

Also i would say if your other variants are good the players are much much weaker at them, games like Badugi, Stud, Razz PLO8

what room are you playing at

I used to play in michigan what room are you playing at

Blackjack I played with 5 or 6 players all using optimal strategy - the only problem I would quit with 150 or so in profit to go play limit hold em - come back 3 hours later and 3 or 4 of the players would have given back all their profit and be broke. The group lasted awhile and substituted in girlfriends cousins etc anyone who could learn basic strategy but human nature to keep gambling past optimal conditions broke most their bankrolls.

Last two days up 147 despite having a set of 10's cracked Friday I won 100 today I won 47 - folded 35 of 36 hands I was dealt played A4 clubs floppe an Ace - under the gun bet 10 3 callers incl. me - board was A 10 5 9 Q I was glad to ck turn and river and have my ace be good. Maybe there is room for a thin value bet against one opponent but against 3 I was happy to win and prob fold the turn to a 20 dollar bet.

Poker rooms - Trippers in Lansing when they spread blackjack - now I have heard they don't even have tourneys only cash. They do have an action packed PLO cash game there, I had totally forgotten about may give it a try soon. Also Hot Rods in Jackson but they are very slow lucky to have one cash table and Firekeepers Soaring Eagle casinos.

love that omaha said:

Blackjack I played with 5 or 6 players all using optimal strategy - the only problem I would quit with 150 or so in profit to go play limit hold em - come back 3 hours later and 3 or 4 of the players would have given back all their profit and be broke. The group lasted awhile and substituted in girlfriends cousins etc anyone who could learn basic strategy but human nature to keep gambling past optimal conditions broke most their bankrolls.

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Either that or the casino finally won as expected.

Basic strategy is not a winning formula. It's the strategy that lets you lose the least.

It reduces a 53-54% house edge to about 51%.

I would like to know how you are 'beating' Blackjack? It is like saying youre beating roulette... it is not actually possible to do it.

SamBush said:

I would like to know how you are 'beating' Blackjack? It is like saying youre beating Roulette... it is not actually possible to do it.

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If it's not possible to beat blackjack --- which I agree with, incidentally --- then why do you care how he's beating it? Either his tracking skills are bad, or he's lying. End of story.

-HooDooKoo

HooDooKoo said:

If it's not possible to beat blackjack --- which I agree with, incidentally --- then why do you care how he's beating it? Either his tracking skills are bad, or he's lying. End of story.

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If it wasn't possible to beat blackjack, casinos wouldn't ban card counters. Just like the don't ban idiots who think they've got a system to beat roulette

Poster above has it right though. Optimal strategy alone won't let you beat the game long term, it'll just minimise the house edge.

OzExorcist said:

If it wasn't possible to beat blackjack, casinos wouldn't ban card counters. Just like the don't ban idiots who think they've got a system to beat roulette

Poster above has it right though. Optimal strategy alone won't let you beat the game long term, it'll just minimise the house edge.

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There is no way to beat blackjack and not get caught, Oz. And counting almost never works anymore because almost no casinos deal out entire shoes.

Try again.

-HooDooKoo

My answer would be, "it depends" if you are a new player in NLHE obviously it will be the worst game ever. I believe this theory that if you have been doing something for AT LEAST 7 YEARS, somehow you are already good at it if not best.

Same thing applies probably in your blackjack and limit hold'em perhaps you have been playing or has been exposed for years compared to playing NLHE. Give it a chance and get volume of hands, learn and study videos if not read poker books. Eventually you will be a winning player!

I used to count cards at blackjack. It's kind of like a $15 an hour job with a sometimes negative pay check.

I stopped about 10 years ago about $15,000 ahead.

Also how do you make a living off blackjack? The down sing for that is very unpredictable and it would put me off for sure if the odds keep stacking against me

A cash player is a careful player, decisions have to be precise or the consequences are high. You sound experienced enough to know what you're doing. If you take the same approach as you did with blackjack then I have no doubt that you would have confident in what you're doing. Good luck though