The need to quantify entertainment value of poker for poker's survival [long]

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SolaRoe

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The entertainment value of poker is extremely important because it creates an ethical way for poker to exist as a viable entity. Poker would not be played unless there were losing players, because without losing players, profitable players cannot make a profit, and everybody quits playing. A losing player needs a reason to continue playing despite losses, and I can think of only four reasons: hope for improvement, lack of understanding, gambling addiction, and entertainment value. Here's a look at all four:

(1) Hope for improvement leads to study and effort that either results in improvement or not. In the former case, the player eventually ceases to be a losing player and becomes a profitable player; and in the latter case, the player remains a losing player and, if she is rational, eventually stops playing. Thus the initial pool of losing players hoping for improvement naturally decreases over time. It can be augmented by new players beginning to play poker for the first time; but the population of losing players who improve to become profitable players increases the total number of profitable players, thus requiring the number of new losing players to increase to a greater degree over time, until it becomes impossible for enough new players to begin playing for the first time without exceeding the potential new player population. This is exacerbated by the fact that, except in the case of problem gamblers, losing players must significantly outnumber profitable players in order to enable the profitable players to make sufficient profit in order for them to bother continuing to play, and while the increase in profitable players can be minor, the corresponding increase in losing players must be much greater. For every new profitable player, you might, for example, need six new losing players--actually seven if the profitable player was a losing player before becoming profitable; but for every two profitable players, you need twelve new losing players, or fourteen if both of the former used to be losing players. So hope for improvement among losing players has a date of death in terms of its ability to sustain poker as an ongoing activity.

2) Lack of understanding of poker is the most common and possibly, in a way, the only reason a player is a losing player. Various factors related to losses, such as improper bankroll management and limit selection, poor hand ranges, poor bet choices, first-level thinking, poor tilt management, and even lack of the experience required to make rapid poker decisions intuitively can be ascribed to lack of understanding of poker (although the latter is debatable). But lack of understanding either decreases with experience or does not. In the former case, gaining understanding eventually leads a player to become profitable; and in the latter case, the player eventually loses so much money that, if she is rational, she quits playing. So the situation is the same as with hope for improvement: an increasing number of players ignorant about poker is required, and this source of poker's sustainability also has a date of death.

3) Problem gambling is an infinitely renewable source of poker losses and therefore the strongest factor in the sustainability of gaming, both as an ongoing social practice and as a business venture. Problem gamblers generally do not gamble rationally and continue gambling until they literally have no more money left to gamble with. In many cases, they recover to acquire additional sources of money, and the cycle starts again. The population of problem gamblers does not need to be increased on its own basis in order for it to sustain poker as an ongoing activity or business, because problem gamblers nearly always come back to play once they have the money again. Even if they receive treatment, relapse is a lifelong possibility and frequently occurs, and a problem gambler generally never becomes a profitable player. Every problem gambler who permanently stops gambling can be replaced by only a single other problem gambler. In addition, the unusually heavy poker investment by problem gamblers makes the number of problem gamblers needed to sustain the profitability of one profitable player much smaller than in the case of losing players who are not problem gamblers. casinos offering negative expectation games such as blackjack appear to be aware of this and to rely on problem gambler losses as their sole source of true profit, appearing to use the entertainment value of their venues in order to draw casual players and non-players to the casino in order to turn them into problem gamblers. In the Province of Ontario, where the provincial government founded all of the province's currently operating major for-profit and charity casinos starting in 1996 and remains a profit-taking investor, research shows that 65% of casino profits come from losses by problem gamblers. It is likely that the figure is similar in every casino around the world or the casino would not stay in business. So not only novelty game perpetuation but the continued existence of poker as a viable endeavour is ensured by the continued existence and mere replacement of existing problem gamblers. But the ethical issues associated with this approach are fairly extreme and don't need elaboration to anyone except idiots and heartless crooks. Since I have no interest in talking to those two populations, I'm going to assume that thinking people with some smidgen of humanity would rather avoid enabling themselves to continue to play poker profitably on the backs of problem gamblers, and proceed to seek an alternative.

4) Entertainment value is the true alternative to problem gambling as a perpetuator of poker's viability--and, indeed, of all gambling business activity. Entertainment value can compensate a losing player for losses and enable them to continue playing indefinitely in a moderate, prudent and non-problem-gambling way. If going to the bar for some beers costs $50 a night, and a losing player can spend one week playing poker online before losing $50, which is the better entertainment choice? In order for it to be a sensible choice, however, entertainment value must be quanitfied and, if possible, monetized. The losing player must have solid reason to believe that she is indeed getting at least $50 in value from her week of play. Some such players will get only $40 in value and can reduce their poker investment to $40 a week, and it's better for the profitable player to make $80 over two weeks than to make $50 in one week and then have the losing player quit and stop being a source of profit. If the losing player is getting $60 worth of entertainment value from poker, however, then she might be in a position, depending on her finances, to increase her weekly poker investment to $60, giving the profitable player an extra $10 in profit each week on an ongoing basis. In addition, regardless of monetization, entertainment value can be quantified to factor into such concepts as pot odds, equity and hand ranges, so that a play that is -EV for a profitable player is rendered +EV for the losing player by the factoring in of entertainment value. Such altered play would organically lead to losses by the losing player and corresponding profits by the winning player, but it would also increase the entertainment value of poker for the losing player, who isn't making a profit anyway and has only entertainment value to derive benefit from. It would be totally a win-win to quantify and monetize poker entertainment value in all ways conceivable and write extensive books on how a losing player can responsibly continue to play poker while remaining a losing player. But, as far as I can tell, nobody in poker has even thought about these concepts, and those to whom I've mentioned them have rejected them out of hand.

The reason why the poker industry cannot address these kinds of issues is the nature of poker professionals, both players and other associated professionals--who almost always started off their careers as profitable poker players; hence essentially all are profitable poker players or used to be profitable poker players until they moved on to other jobs in poker. Such people have a blind spot for anything other than profit and seem unable to form a concept of poker losses on an ongoing basis as an acceptable alternative. For active profitable players, this could very well be a psychological requirement in order for them to be able to remain profitable players; no research whatsoever has been done on this question, so I don't know. But other poker industry professionals who aren't active players could perhaps be persuaded to take a look at the concepts I've presented here and the issues I've discussed and, just maybe, do something about them. I lack the expertise to take these issues any farther and must leave it in their hands. Either they choose to save the future of poker, or, at some point in the future, the poker industry will die with a whimper. I am, of course, assuming the ethical advancement of our species, because it's entirely possible that both poker and gaming in general will continue to feast off the misery of problem gamblers forever, gradually demoralizing and alienating all genuinely human beings formerly involved with them, until only worthless scum operate and work for casinos and are profitable poker players, turning both general gaming and the poker world into hell on earth. People can decide for themselves which of these two alternatives would be less hideous.
 
pfb8888

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there is a sucker born every minute...today its more like every second...

poker like life is and will always be a pyramid...unless people stop reproducing
 
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SolaRoe

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there is a sucker born every minute...today its more like every second...

poker like life is and will always be a pyramid...unless people stop reproducing

I see taking advantage of suckers as being similar to sticking your foot out to trip a blind person, or dumping a paraplegic out of her wheelchair and then moving the wheelchair out of reach. There is a far more ethical way for profitable players to make money, but I'm frankly sick and tired of feeding pearls to swine, so I'm not going to bother saying anything more about it in public. Anyone who has an IQ above 20 (which seems to exclude all profitable poker players) is welcome to PM me or email me if they want to talk.
 
JCgrind

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I see taking advantage of suckers as being similar to sticking your foot out to trip a blind person, or dumping a paraplegic out of her wheelchair and then moving the wheelchair out of reach. There is a far more ethical way for profitable players to make money, but I'm frankly sick and tired of feeding pearls to swine, so I'm not going to bother saying anything more about it in public. Anyone who has an IQ above 20 (which seems to exclude all profitable poker players) is welcome to PM me or email me if they want to talk.

are you trolling or just senile?

i agree that as poker players, we make absolutely no valuable contribution to society, whereas every other profession that i can think of does- this arguably excludes live professionals whose games are televised etc and provide an entertainment benefit to the public.

but to say its like tripping a blind person? REALLY? if inexperienced players want to sit down at a poker table with me, obv knowing full well that theres every chance they lose their money, i have more than every right to take every single dollar they willingly put on that table and lose to me, regardless of the fact that i have a large skill advantage over them.

why do you even frequent CC if thats how you feel about poker.
 
OzExorcist

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I agree in principle that poker players should be aware of making sure losing players are having a good time - after all, they're the only reason winning players can exist.

Personally I think it's more of an issue for live poker than it is online, for two reasons:

1 - online poker is, at its heart, a pretty anti-social activity and one that you've got to go out of your way to participate in. You've got to download the software, create an account, find a way to deposit money into said account... then you get to sit there on your own clicking a mouse.

2 - With live poker, on the other hand, you remove pretty much all of those barriers and add some benefits on top. If you're already in the casino or a bar or whatever with a game on you can just walk up to a table and plonk down whatever money is in your pocket - no sign ups or logins or other barriers. It's social because you're playing with other people, you can get drinks, there's ususally music...

So yeah - personally I think being friendly with the losing players and helping to ensure they have a good time is absolutely essential if you're a live player. If you're online, I don't think there's much you can do as a player other than not degrade people in the chat box, because the interaction is so limited.

On the whole though I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't need to be solved. Even when you take out the abberation of the poker boom, the game has continued to grow and the population continues to grow too. We're not running out of new losing players any time soon.
 
JCgrind

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Although i am not as up myself as the previous poster perceiving my skill level to be much greater than it actually is, i do think your comment is a bit ludacrist. Nobody is forced to sit at a poker table saying that taking a problem gamblers money is as worse as knocking a person out of a wheelchair is just redicolous. People in wheelchairs cant help the fact they are however anyone can choose if they want to play a poker table. Geez, over the short term a problem gambler has just as much chance at winning at the tables as you do poker still has a element of luck in it thats what keeps the loosing players like you coming back. How do i know your a loosing player? You said it in your thread.

Lol wow. Yes I'm so arrogant saying I have a large skill advantage over suckers. Obviously if im even a slightly winning player my statement would have to be true, wouldnt it. Its not blowing my own trumpet, its making a comment about how i feel and how i believe one should feel when they "stack a sucker".

Also, posting that someone is up themselves is prob not something I'd be saying to someone, especially when I'm new and have no idea how good/bad they actually are.
 
duggs

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JC i feel you grossly over estimate the net benefit of the vast majority of jobs mate.
 
JCgrind

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lol. surely every other profession has something to offer to society? you know, excluding drug dealing as a profession etc etc haha
 
duggs

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the finance sector is essentially the same as poker, everyone in that industry profits from arbitrage. just like us and poker. And working in something simple or high demand means that you are just holding the job someone else that is unemployed/unhappy would do. If you are happy playing poker that trumps all other aspects imo
 
Charade You Are

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lol. surely every other profession has something to offer to society? you know, excluding drug dealing as a profession etc etc haha

Why would you exclude drug dealing? Not every user is a dope addict, just as every poker player is not a gambling addict. I could argue that some so-called "legitimate" professions actually do society a lot more harm.
 
duggs

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Why would you exclude drug dealing? Not every user is a dope addict, just as every poker player is not a gambling addict.

because drug dealing quite clearly has a net cost to society
 
JCgrind

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^ what duggs said.

also man, not familiar with the principles of arbitrage. like, i get how its making money for doing/providing basically nothing, but i dont think its the same in that you arent really taking money from anyone. if anything wouldnt it add to more competitive markets?

again, i could be compleeeetely misapplying this, i did a lot better on the law side of my commerce/law degree... which ive deferred from a year ago lmao
 
duggs

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arbitrage is deriving value from finding exploitable holes in the markets. the people selling the underpriced shares or buying the overpriced ones are losing just the same as the fish on our tables.
 
duggs

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best thing about poker is that hte fish have a chance and they derive enjoyment from it
 
duggs

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please name and give proof of the said legitimate professions that chave a higher net cost than drug dealing.

also JC the efficient markets is a good counter argument however i would argue that the individual effect on completing markets is essentially zero due to sheer scale
 
JCgrind

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please name and give proof of the said legitimate professions that chave a higher net cost than drug dealing.

the tobacco industry would surely be up there, i say as i get back from a smoke break. but now im just throwing shit out there.

also JC the efficient markets is a good counter argument however i would argue that the individual effect on completing markets is essentially zero due to sheer scale

and i would let you make that argument and assume its valid simply because im not even close to understanding lol :confused:
 
duggs

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possibly, but the marginal cost of working for the cig companies isnt worse than the marginal cost of dealing drugs, its just a scale thing imo but its a good example.

dealing drugs have heaps of indirect costs.

cost of prevention by govt,
cost of anti crime action
cost of prosecution
cost of punitive system
cost of addiction to hospitals.
flow on crime because of addiction costs etc.

where as with tobacco it has higher hospital costs. but at least sin taxes balance it out a bit and there arent the same prohibition costs.
 
LuckyChippy

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I've heard of a study that with smokers paying the tax they do and then dying before collecting a pension, or most of it, because of lower life expectancy that they're a net plus despite hospital costs.


Also on the drug thing. I definitely think it depends on what kind of drug dealer you and in what you deal in. If you're smuggling in heroin or selling crack then yeah, you're probably generating a net cost to society. If you're selling a couple party favours to friends every other weekend for a good time then probably no harm done.
 
duggs

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agree LC, but then it wouldnt really be an occupation then which was the basis for comparison.

Plus people dying younger also brings a social cost to society.
 
ovitoo

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Legitametely, illegitiment professions:
  • Pornographers (staff/talent)
  • Insurance adjusters
  • Those ppl that sell "holy water" in infomercials
  • Garbage pickers
  • Peddlers
  • Justin Beiber's stylist
  • And just about anyone selling a "Get rich quick" scheme
 
duggs

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porn is a product so i fail to see the net cost to society
garbage pickers definitely provide a service
dont see the point with insurance
and i really dont see any damage done by the others. i mean they dont benefit much, but dont do much damage either
 
ovitoo

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porn is a product so i fail to see the net cost to society
garbage pickers definitely provide a service
dont see the point with insurance
and i really dont see any damage done by the others. i mean they dont benefit much, but dont do much damage either

Porn has been made very accessable to ANYONE. If you don't think it is damaging that a 10 yo can click a button and see something he should kno nothing about then idk.

Garbage pickers do a service for whom? The garbage men who have less to pick up?

Insurance adjusters are employed to find flaws in someones claim so the company doesnt have to pay out to someone who has been paying them consistentely.

And the others were just meant to bring humor.

Illigitemecy is not synonymous with "damaging".
 
duggs

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porn is accessible to anyone and i don't think its the most damaging thing in the world. If parents are negligent enough with computers then its there own fault.
what exactly are garbage pickers?
Insurance adjustors technically are neutral EV since everyone else would pay higher amounts if some claims weren't rejected.
 
duggs

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yea but with porn they are providing for a pretty large consumer market also. and thats what childlocks on internet software is designed for.

haha right, those garbage pickers just sound like homeless people to me.
 
duggs

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may i just say that this is a great derail btw
 
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