"Mucked" Hand Question

I had a situation that really upset a player that I am looking for an impartial ruling on:


-Five players left in the tournament.

-Player A is button, B is Small Blind, Player C Big Blind, etc, etc

-Blinds are 4K/8k


Player D folds

Player E calls 8K

Player A (button) calls 8K

Player B (small blind) folds (me)

Player C (big blind) raise to 24K

Player E folds




Player A(button) takes time to consider raise and calls the 24K




Player C(big blind and initial raiser) throws cards forward because he didn't see Player A call. However, cards did not touch the muck pile.




Upon seeing this, the dealer and myself rule that Player C's cards are still live. Cards are returned to Player C.




Flop is K 6 6




Player C pushes all in. Player A calls




Player C has A K

Player A has K 3

Turn and river are inconsequential.




Player C wins the showdown and Player A is out of the tournament.




Player A believes that the cards thrown forward by mistake should have been dead.




Please give me your opinion as to the ruling on this so we can make it right.




Thank you

What do you mean the Dealer and You ruled? In this situation you should be calling the tournament director. (I think)

It's down to the tourney director to make that decision.. If the cards are identifiable then they can be retrieved but the director has the final say.

I am the "tournament director", it's a small game in which I play and organize the game.

jday1225 said:

I am the "tournament director", it's a small game in which I play and organize the game.

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Then what you did was fine..

Thanks, the more replies I get on this the better!

Let's hear it poker world!

Since it's your house rules it's your call.

If it helps though, this would likely also be the call in most poker rooms, where hands aren't usually declared dead if they haven't touched the muck, especially if not exposed. Even hands that hit the muck but can be retrieved with confidence can be ruled live in some cases.

In general, the rules are meant to promote fairness, not to be hidebound. In this instance, it's obvious that C would not have folded had he seen A's call, so since there was no problem identifying and returning C's cards, there's no question that it's more fair to do so than to rule that he mucked.

^^^ This. I should have mentioned that in most games and venues, including big tournaments like the WSOPME, floormen and TD's have wide latitude in the calls they make because the intent is to make rulings that are in the best interest of the players and the game, rather than ruling in a vacuum according to the letter of the rulebook. There's no reason in this case to declare the hand dead. If player A had sucked out with runner runner 33 do you think he'd be clamoring for the hand to be ruled dead?

Haven't done one of these for a while Here's the relevant section from Robert's Rules of Poker:


It seems a bit marginal to me. Part 2 of the rule does say extra effort should be made to retrieve the hand, but not paying attention to the game is very different to being given incorrect information and it sounds like Player C is guilty of the former, not the latter.

That said since they're the only two players in the hand, nobody else is affected and it's clearly an honest mistake, not an angle shoot, I'd be inclined to give him his cards back too.

I had almost the same situation happen to me in a live casino a couple weeks ago.

My AQ vs villains AK. Board was irrelevant. I checked the river, and opponent checked back the river, and then threw his cards forward, face down (across the yellow bet-line, but the cards did not hit the muck). I flipped over my AQ, and the guy leaned over and got his cards back, and flipped over the AK.

I called for a ruling. I guess the rule is since the cards did not touch the muck, the guy is allowed to retrieve them and play the cards.

Once you muck your hand in a casino its DEAD!!
Ok ,he didn't see that som1 called, I'm sorry, they will usually call a floor manager over and if his cards are visible, play will continue.

This kind of situation happens a ton in live games at my local casino.

Unless the cards touch the muck or the player verbally announces a fold, they can be returned to the player. Some dealers are quick to grab the cards and slide them into the muck, but if the dealer doesn't do it, the player who "folded" is allowed to get his cards back.

Mr Sandbag said:

Some dealers are quick to grab the cards and slide them into the muck, but if the dealer doesn't do it, the player who "folded" is allowed to get his cards back.

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Upon reflection, that was what I was upset at myself in my story.

After villain checks behind on the river and immediately throws his cards face down towards the middle, I should've at least waited for a couple seconds to see if the dealer picked up his cards or not.

I'll know for next time

i don´t understand why he was throwing AK, did he think everybody fold it before him so he got the pot and threw the cards? or just folding because he thought the other guy made a reraise?

Yes, he thought everyone folded to his raise preflop and didn't see the button had made the call.

sam1chips said:

Upon reflection, that was what I was upset at myself in my story.

After villain checks behind on the river and immediately throws his cards face down towards the middle, I should've at least waited for a couple seconds to see if the dealer picked up his cards or not.

I'll know for next time

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Sometimes I come across players who bluff the river and instantly throw their hands into the muck when called. I've never done it, but I always thought it'd be interesting to call one of these players with like 7 high just to see if he mucks.

Learned. I never do anything with my cards until the dealer starts to push me the pot.

sleepymike said:

Learned. I never do anything with my cards until the dealer starts to push me the pot.

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Does the dealer push you the pot before you show you hand?

sam1chips said:

Does the dealer push you the pot before you show you hand?

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Yes. He's that good. The dealer just assumes he wins.

sam1chips said:

Does the dealer push you the pot before you show you hand?

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The dealer would if the hand didn't go to showdown - which is what Player C had incorrectly assumed in OP.

I agree with mostly everyone. The intent was that he had thought he had won the hand. The cards were retrievable and as such the action as it played out was correct.

Sorry for not clarifying.
I was replying to the post above mine, I should of included it in quotes.
I was thinking of heads up, and of course, again I should of clarified.
My humble apologies, I will endeavor to do better.

Jdawg0913 said:

I agree with mostly everyone. The intent was that he had thought he had won the hand. The cards were retrievable and as such the action as it played out was correct.

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I know I'm nitpicking here, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that retrieving the hand is the "correct" thing to do just because the cards were retrievable - that implies that it's what you should do every time.

In this particular set of circumstances it seems it was in the best interest of the game to give the player his cards back. But don't take that to mean that a player should always get their cards back when they think they've won a hand and throw them away, because there'll be situations where the "correct" thing will be to rule them dead.

OzExorcist said:

Haven't done one of these for a while Here's the relevant section from Robert's Rules of Poker:

DEAD HANDS

1. Your hand is declared dead if:

(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.​

It seems a bit marginal to me. Part 2 of the rule does say extra effort should be made to retrieve the hand, but not paying attention to the game is very different to being given incorrect information and it sounds like Player C is guilty of the former, not the latter.

That said since they're the only two players in the hand, nobody else is affected and it's clearly an honest mistake, not an angle shoot, I'd be inclined to give him his cards back too.

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The player accidentally throwing his cards in wasn't facing a bet or raise, therefore rule 1 doesn't apply in this situation.