The more I read, the worse I play...

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Blown01Cobra

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I've been reading a variety of strategy books lately both online and offline. Most of the ones available at the local library are written before online poker, so the strategies are mostly poker in general - but I've read a few that are more recent, like one written by Phil Gordon, another called Insider Secrets of Online Poker, and most recently Decide to Play Great Poker by Annie Duke.


The problem is, a lot of them seem to have very conflicting objectives. One book strongly disapproves check-raising and another says it's a valuable tool. Some say always raise or fold, others say it's best to just call sometimes because the flop can quickly turn strong hole cards into terrible hole cards. I mean, it just seems like every writer has developed their own tools for the job, and so each time I read another book it changes my perspective entirely on how I should use those tools for a certain situation - and needless to say there are an infinite number of situations in which I try to memorize a books thoughts when I'd be better off just using my own experience. Obviously every strategy is only relevant for certain circumstances, but it seems like a lot of what I read is starting to affect my overall game because now it's not a matter of if I feel like I'm making the right decision, but rather of if I'm making the correct "right" decision for the circumstance.


Sometimes I find myself trying to analyze a situation based upon what I read in a book rather than just using my own developed strengths and knowledge and find myself doing something that ends up hurting me in the long run. I'll never go out and say I'm one of the most amazing players, so I definately feel like I should take a few words of advice from the "pros", but the more I read the more I find myself questioning which book I should be following for that particular strategy.


I feel like before I was simply playing from experience and using my own subconscious level of decision making and somehow everything was working out (in the long run) positive. Now, I find myself trying to conciously be aware of the decisions I'm making, pressed against an ever ticking countdown, and trying to desperately remember what all the books had to say...and it just isn't working as well. But now, I've become so rooted in borrowing their strategies, that finding my own personal edge is a very slow process. Anyone else find themselves attempting to match someone elses strategy and have it negatively affect their game?
 
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Caesura

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I think it depends where you are at with your game, what level you play, cash or tournies.
I started to read poker books because I wanted to learn how to choose when to play certain cards, such as when you fold 84 and the flop is Q44. I thought there was a game theory to when to do this. What I learnt was cards that I thought were good, K9 in particular, were in fact trash. So I learnt hand selection.
Then I realised I was very passive, hated preflop raising, so I slowly brought this into my game and now it's second nature. And so it continues.
What I think is important to realise is that when you try a new technique it might fail the first 3 times and so you drop it. However if you had tried it 20 times it might work 13-14 times.
Keep at it, and if you feel your own plays work for you then carry on. Figure out what part of your game needs work e.g. do you call too much, bet sizing etc, and see what they have to say in the books about it.
 
dirtyoldog

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Ive learned in life you learn best from your own experience.Ive never read a poker book and i dont watch poker on tv ive only been playing for a few years but i will go to the casino sit and drink and play cards for 8 hours and usually break even win some lose some. online i do ok win a little free money play with that and have millions in play money on a few sites.if these poker pros newall the answers the books would be worth alot more money. live and learn.
 
TakinOver

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Yes.. I am not no pro and could use the help. No matter what the help i need is too see the other guys whole cards. Thats not gonna happen. The swings in this game can drive one crazy and thats me. I was using my own experience also and doing so well. Recently with a roll built from nothing and playing everyday, I am experiencing the worst side of poker i guess. A downswing witch is very unreal. Its all down hill and no up. Rivers and runner runners. Read some books recently also and who knows maybe its messed me up too. Cant blame the books but god, wish it seem fair but instead I feel doomed. Good luck on the felts.
 
vinylspiros

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hey man, well written thread.i totally understand what u mean.and i feel exactly the same way. when i first started playing online poker,i was a complete donk.the word position meant nothing to me.the only thing i knew was i have good cards let me bet them. paired boards meant nothing to me. made flushes were not easily caught from my eye. but u know what. i made some good money on mtt's. i came out 3rd out of 4 thousand people in a buy 5 $ buy in or smthng.made a little less than 1k i think.smthng like that.preflop aggression were not even things i would ever dream of.3-betting was unheard of for me.i was a basic player.BASIC. and u know what; basic players can do just as good sometimes.because sometimes when u try to outplay ur opponent by not believing they have it just cause they are on the button has gotten me into some really costly situations that i wish i could have avoided IF i only had known less. i think the human brain is like a computer that if overloaded with information,can reach SYSTEM OVERLOAD which in turn will lead to failure in processing the information correctly. my advice to you since it seams you know how to play the game.leave books aside and practice playing many hours and maintain the style which is the most profitable for you and only make the decisions that you think are the right ones. books are great in theory but theory and practice sometimes do not go together smoothly.
 
NeverEnough

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Good post, thanks. I've read a few poker books & it seems like my last 2 tournaments (I only play live) have been crap. I've read Kill Everyone a couple times & Harrington on Hold Em Vol II twice as well recently. Maybe I should put the books away & get back to basics & playing my very tight ways.
 
KingCurtis

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Strategy books have helped but the best ones have been the ones that teach you ho to be calm and to be patient...every time I read zen and the art of poker I play well.
 
dmorris68

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You have to read the right books, and you have to be able to apply the knowledge to your skill, games, and opponents.

With a few exceptions, be careful reading books written by live players and/or about live poker and trying to apply that to online poker -- it's a different game. I think all the books you quoted are live books by live players. Also online poker books written 5+ years ago should be taken carefully, because the game has changed so much.

The problem most beginners have with applying training information is trying to do to much too soon, without fulling understanding or mastering any of it. Also some people just don't learn from books, and do better with videos or live coaching.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Good thread.

I would like to add a little something.

Books can help you learn the theory, odds, and other aspects of the game. However, I believe every situation is dynamic. There is no ABC way to play poker. There are general guidlines. Table dynamics, player styles, tilted players, etc, etc, etc, etc, may change the situation at hand.

Experience is simply the best way to get better at poker IMHO. The more situations you have actually been in - the more prepared you are to make the right decision when the time comes.
 
Arjonius

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It's not nearly as simple as reading a book means you know more and therefore your results will improve. Poker is highly situational, so you have to filter what you read to determine how well or poorly anything you read fits your situation - your style, your opponents, etc.

And that's before you get to trying to integrate anything into your game. Just understanding something presented in a book, forum, video, etc. doesn't mean it can be smoothly integrated into your game without affecting other aspects.

So even if you've correctly identified something to change or adapt in your game, it's not like you can plug it in and expect immediate positive results with no implementation issues and no effects on the rest of your game.

And if you choose something that's fine for the writer but a poor fit for you, the result is likely to be negative.
 
Hanagis

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I think it depends where you are at with your game, what level you play, cash or tournies.
I started to read poker books because I wanted to learn how to choose when to play certain cards, such as when you fold 84 and the flop is Q44. I thought there was a game theory to when to do this. What I learnt was cards that I thought were good, K9 in particular, were in fact trash. So I learnt hand selection.
Then I realised I was very passive, hated preflop raising, so I slowly brought this into my game and now it's second nature. And so it continues.
What I think is important to realise is that when you try a new technique it might fail the first 3 times and so you drop it. However if you had tried it 20 times it might work 13-14 times.
Keep at it, and if you feel your own plays work for you then carry on. Figure out what part of your game needs work e.g. do you call too much, bet sizing etc, and see what they have to say in the books about it.

hey i just read your post,
i really think that you have a good way of putting it. Ive never thought of it like that at all b4 and i wish i had. Thats a great peice of advice. Thanks for this Post. I believe that you should take this attitude into alot of different aspects in life because ull never know if your going to succeed without trying, and if u fail a few times n push yourself you might find that you will reallt like the outcome.
 
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Caesura

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Thanks Hanagis, I wasn't trying to be deep or anything but it's nice to receive a positive response to a post.

Good luck at the tables
 
kltpzyxMrM

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Strategy books have helped but the best ones have been the ones that teach you ho to be calm and to be patient...every time I read zen and the art of poker I play well.

+1 on the Zen still a relevant book.

The trouble with books, that are older is the games have changed in many aspects from the time the books were written. One of the advantages that video training sites have as a way to learn, is they usually have more current information. Because it's faster, cheaper and easier for them to post a video than publish a new book.

Don't get me I still like books, but sometimes you have to take somethings with a grain of salt or think about what poker was like when the book was published. Holds true for older instructional videos too.
 
NeverEnough

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+1 on the Zen still a relevant book.

The trouble with books, that are older is the games have changed in many aspects from the time the books were written. One of the advantages that video training sites have as a way to learn, is they usually have more current information. Because it's faster, cheaper and easier for them to post a video than publish a new book.

Don't get me I still like books, but sometimes you have to take somethings with a grain of salt or think about what poker was like when the book was published. Holds true for older instructional videos too.
The video sites I have found are all pay sites. Are there no free video sites out there worth anything?
 
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Yea seems like your taking what you read in books to the letter,actually you should use what you read to enhance your game, everybody has there own style of play!!the more you play the more you'll start to understand what you read and the more you'll apply it to your game!
 
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