minimum monthly earnings for a pro

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only_bridge

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How much money do you guys think you should consistantly be able to make before you could consider becoming a pro?
Do you think becoming a pro takes all the fun out of playing poker?
My own answer would be that I dont know, but what do you guys think? Does anyone have any own experience?
 
doops

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How much money depends on how much you need to sustain your lifestyle. You need to be able to make a consistent profit of your living expenses plus about 1/3 of that profit for taxes. If, as a pro, you can write some things off of taxes legitimately, you probably don't want to factor that in until those expenses are plainly legitimate and substantial.
So, first, you need a bankroll that will easily let you play at the necessary levels. A live bankroll might be different than the needed online bankroll, as, online, you can multitable. Online, also, you can adjust the hours played as necessary without factoring in drive time, gas, etc. So, if you need to make $1k (+350 for taxes) a week, if you played 40 hours a week, you'd need to make about $34/hr, so you'd have to play at whetever level you'd need to make that. Maybe you'd need $50k to start as a live pro but only $20K for online, as you could multi table for longer at lower levels with similar possible results. You might also be better able to win at the lower levels, and better able to psychologically withstand beats.

Then, of course, you need to factor in variance. Those days, weeks, months where you are not making a profit, and eating into your bankroll. You'd need a plan of action -- grind out more hours, perhaps, at lower (beatable) levels. Or put a hefty slush fund aside to help you ride out those periods.

Personally, I would think that making poker my primary source of income, my business, would drive out a lot of the fun of playing. Knowing that I absolutely have to make $XXXX a month or my bills wouldn't get paid... yikes. I doubt I would like the pressure, and suspect it would make me tiltier. I suspect that's why so many pros welcome affiliations, sponsor deals, book deals, TV, other ways to bring in income without having it all ride on the turn of the cards.

Obviously, I've thought about it. It's a no for me. Beside, I don't have the bankroll... LOL
 
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only_bridge

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Thx for the nice answer. I dont have a big bankroll, and I dont make 1350$ a week, but I hate my so called, minimum wage 'job' so much.
Im thinking that I at least make more money on poker than on my current job, but I guess becoming a pro would eventually drive me mad (and broke).
 
doops

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So make extra money with your poker, playing like it's a part-time job. At least, see if you can make a hundred or a couple hundred in profit every week. If you can, make monthly withdrawals OR move up in levels and see if you can then sustain, say, $300/wk profit playing part time. Keep moving up, see if you can make it work. See how you do and how you feel, playing 20 hours a week, at set times like a job.

That would be my plan, if I could only break out of breaking even in the long-run. :D One week, I'm up a hundred, the next, I'm down 50, then another down....then up again. If you can go up consistently, you might find it all more possible than I can. Perhaps part-timing it will help-- and the extra money, if you withdraw your profits periodically, may make your stable paycheck job more bearable.

But don't forget to keep good records, and save about half for taxes.
 
ukaliks

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How much money depends on how much you need to sustain your lifestyle. You need to be able to make a consistent profit of your living expenses plus about 1/3 of that profit for taxes. If, as a pro, you can write some things off of taxes legitimately, you probably don't want to factor that in until those expenses are plainly legitimate and substantial.
So, first, you need a bankroll that will easily let you play at the necessary levels. A live bankroll might be different than the needed online bankroll, as, online, you can multitable. Online, also, you can adjust the hours played as necessary without factoring in drive time, gas, etc. So, if you need to make $1k (+350 for taxes) a week, if you played 40 hours a week, you'd need to make about $34/hr, so you'd have to play at whetever level you'd need to make that. Maybe you'd need $50k to start as a live pro but only $20K for online, as you could multi table for longer at lower levels with similar possible results. You might also be better able to win at the lower levels, and better able to psychologically withstand beats.

Then, of course, you need to factor in variance. Those days, weeks, months where you are not making a profit, and eating into your bankroll. You'd need a plan of action -- grind out more hours, perhaps, at lower (beatable) levels. Or put a hefty slush fund aside to help you ride out those periods.

Personally, I would think that making poker my primary source of income, my business, would drive out a lot of the fun of playing. Knowing that I absolutely have to make $XXXX a month or my bills wouldn't get paid... yikes. I doubt I would like the pressure, and suspect it would make me tiltier. I suspect that's why so many pros welcome affiliations, sponsor deals, book deals, TV, other ways to bring in income without having it all ride on the turn of the cards.

Obviously, I've thought about it. It's a no for me. Beside, I don't have the bankroll... LOL

Nice read. +1
To me I would love to be a professional poker player. As soon as u make £24k cash it out. Thats £2000 a month to live on for a year which isnt bad IMO, any extra and u cash out/keep in ur BR to juice it up.
But playin poker for a living would put too much pressure on ya. Where else can u grind work for 5hours and be in the -$?
Herd alot of stories of ppl who have grinded the cash games for months to make nice bankrolls, to loose a chunks in a matter of minutes due to the bad beats/swings in cash games.
To me IMO if I was a good player making decent money on poker, i'd rather have a part-time job then spend the rest of my time playing poker. Least that way u've got something else brining in the money aswell as not puttin TOO much time into poker.
 
jordanbillie

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Personally, I wouldn't consider going pro unless I could make $10,000 a month or more. Until I can get to that point, it is not worth the stress.
 
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TheWall

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How much do you need to survive? That is how much it costs to go pro.
 
lektrikguy

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Thx for the nice answer. I dont have a big bankroll, and I dont make 1350$ a week, but I hate my so called, minimum wage 'job' so much.
Im thinking that I at least make more money on poker than on my current job, but I guess becoming a pro would eventually drive me mad (and broke).

You make more on poker consistently? You gotta allow for ups and downs and long long dry spells. Don't quit your job yet.
 
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Crudelis

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I strongly advise against making it your full time job unless you have made a large consistent profit. (A large consistent profit in my opinion would be $8,000 per month for a year.)
 
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maolitas

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I guess than when you can cover all your monthly expenses, including taxes, then you earn enough to make poker your job.

But I think you must try to earn a lot more, because when poker will be your job, you'll probably have less fun playing, and also there's a lot of variance in poker.
So if you hardly cover your expenses, you may be exposed to a row of bad beats that could hurt you.
 
Stu_Ungar

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How much money do you guys think you should consistantly be able to make before you could consider becoming a pro?
Do you think becoming a pro takes all the fun out of playing poker?
My own answer would be that I dont know, but what do you guys think? Does anyone have any own experience?

The word pro is short for professional.

A professional is defined as someone who makes his living through an activity and subsequent definitions of living ect mean that to be a pro then the activity has to make the majority of your income and take the majority of your time.

In short if you are a pro, then the activity is what you do.

So, how much money do you want to earn?

If $5 a hour is OK then dedicate the majority of your time to poker, and if that constitutes the majority of your earnings then $5 an hour makes you a pro.

An economist would look at the next highest paid activity you are capabe of doing and if that yeilds higher expected earnings than poker then you should not become a poker pro.

Of course this dosen't take into account other factors such as your enjoyment of poker.

How much should you earn? its such a person specific question, start with how much do you NEED to earn and how much do you enjoy your PRESENT line of work?

Then work backwards from there.
 
doops

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I strongly advise against making it your full time job unless you have made a large consistent profit. (A large consistent profit in my opinion would be $8,000 per month for a year.)

Dang, I would sure love to make $8k in one month! LOL It's a good guideline, though -- would keep a lot of people from ever considering going pro. "Oh, no -- I cannot take that job since I cannot survive on less than $96,000 a year."

Any reason why you set it at that? You have a mortgage to pay? Do you assume that pretty much anyone can earn $100K at other jobs? Or is it that only someone who is smart enough to be able to make at least that much elsewhere could be a strong enough poker player to reasonably go pro? Hmmmm.... might be right...
 
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I'd go pro if I could earn $2000 a month, and never bother looking for a regular job again. Supposing you work 10 months a year thats $20000 or £13000 a year which is enough to live on.
You have to factor in that poker winnings are all tax free and if you play online you don't have to pay any travel expenses, which is a big money saver, and time saver. On the down side you obviously never get paid for holidays.
 
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Xavier

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Do you assume that pretty much anyone can earn $100K at other jobs? Or is it that only someone who is smart enough to be able to make at least that much elsewhere could be a strong enough poker player to reasonably go pro? Hmmmm.... might be right...

That statements a load of crap.
What about all the people with degrees who can't even get jobs or just do jobs like working in Supermarkets or Barwork, some of whom are probably very capable of becoming very strong poker players.
 
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only_bridge

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Funny, I always thought that you should chose a job that you love. This discussion has gotten me to think that you should chose a job that you can stand, and an interest that you love. Cause choosing something that you love as your occupation seems to take away a lot of that love.
 
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orangepeeleo

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Personally, I wouldn't consider going pro unless I could make $10,000 a month or more. Until I can get to that point, it is not worth the stress.

I could be wrong and you could be earning 150k per year atm in your full time job but something tells me you could be showing your age there i think, try having a full time job earning £1.6k per month (and in my case getting shot at for 6 months out of 18) and tell me that earning 7-9k per month playing poker would not be "worth the stress".

There's discussions like this on the other poker forum all the time and it amazes me how many college/uni kids think they're going to walk into 6 figure per year jobs when they leave.

I personally think that i would be more than comfortable playing poker for $4k per month, that works out around 2.8k in sterling i think, not many people round my way earning that kinda money.

Just depends on your personal circumstances i think.
 
doops

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Funny, I always thought that you should chose a job that you love. This discussion has gotten me to think that you should chose a job that you can stand, and an interest that you love. Cause choosing something that you love as your occupation seems to take away a lot of that love.

That depends on what it is you love about something that might (or might not) earn you a good living. Many occupations can provide quite a lot of job satisfaction -- it is at least 80% in your own mindset whether you can find some part of the job that is interesting and energizes you in some way. Some people can handle any job that has hours and benefits to their liking. Jobs one loves much of the time, and jobs that make good money are not always the same.

Few dream occupations, those that you imagine you might love, that you have trained for and have become skilled at, truly measure up to the dreams. There are, in my experience, problems involved that you did not anticipate. Or you did not anticipate that you wouldn't like certain aspects. For instance, a job that involves a lot of travel might sound great, but then you might find that you hate being away from home -- or not having a home-- so much of the time. Family and friends may be more important to you than you thought and time with them is more important than more money. Life is about learning stuff about your own self and organizing your life so that your life fits who you are.
 
jordanbillie

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I could be wrong and you could be earning 150k per year atm in your full time job but something tells me you could be showing your age there i think, try having a full time job earning £1.6k per month (and in my case getting shot at for 6 months out of 18) and tell me that earning 7-9k per month playing poker would not be "worth the stress".

There's discussions like this on the other poker forum all the time and it amazes me how many college/uni kids think they're going to walk into 6 figure per year jobs when they leave.

I personally think that i would be more than comfortable playing poker for $4k per month, that works out around 2.8k in sterling i think, not many people round my way earning that kinda money.

Just depends on your personal circumstances i think.

Well, I am not going to get into specifics about exactly how much I make at my job, but I have mentioned before that I am a poker dealer.

I can tell you that I am not a "uni kid" in college thinking that I am going to land a $100K+ job right out of college. I have been a dealer for over a year now and it is the highest paying job I have had in my life so far.

The reason why I wouldn't quit my job for less than $10K/month is because of a couple reasons:

1) A couple years ago while I was between jobs, I did play for a living and I saw how much more stress it is to play when you have no other source of income.

2) One of my best friends is an online pro and he does well, but he tells me the same stuff about being stessed all the time (and bored).

3) I am making solid cash as a dealer and I am not going to quit because I can make a couple thousand more a month playing, not worth the risk.

4) I also enjoy having a great paying job along with playing poker because all the money I make from poker doesn't matter to me and I can keep it online to continue to build up a BR and climb the stakes.

I think the reason why my friend and I were both bored/stressed playing online for a living was because we weren't making enough. I was only working with a $500 BR playing $10 sngs and he is playing $10/$20 sngs all day long, so you naturally are going to get stressed from that. I know I am going to get to a point in the future where I may have to reconsider, but until I do, I am loving the non stress factor of playing on the side while dealing for a living.

I can see your point about making the 1.6K pounds/month. I looked it up and that is about $2600/month. So if I was only making $2600/month, yes $6-8K looks a little bit nicer, but with my current situation, I really wouldn't go pro until I could make $10K a month.
 
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Well, I am not going to get into specifics about exactly how much I make at my job, but I have mentioned before that I am a poker dealer.

I can tell you that I am not a "uni kid" in college thinking that I am going to land a $100K+ job right out of college. I have been a dealer for over a year now and it is the highest paying job I have had in my life so far.

The reason why I wouldn't quit my job for less than $10K/month is because of a couple reasons:

1) A couple years ago while I was between jobs, I did play for a living and I saw how much more stress it is to play when you have no other source of income.

2) One of my best friends is an online pro and he does well, but he tells me the same stuff about being stessed all the time (and bored).

3) I am making solid cash as a dealer and I am not going to quit because I can make a couple thousand more a month playing, not worth the risk.

4) I also enjoy having a great paying job along with playing poker because all the money I make from poker doesn't matter to me and I can keep it online to continue to build up a BR and climb the stakes.

I think the reason why my friend and I were both bored/stressed playing online for a living was because we weren't making enough. I was only working with a $500 BR playing $10 sngs and he is playing $10/$20 sngs all day long, so you naturally are going to get stressed from that. I know I am going to get to a point in the future where I may have to reconsider, but until I do, I am loving the non stress factor of playing on the side while dealing for a living.

I can see your point about making the 1.6K pounds/month. I looked it up and that is about $2600/month. So if I was only making $2600/month, yes $6-8K looks a little bit nicer, but with my current situation, I really wouldn't go pro until I could make $10K a month.

Yeah, it is all about personal circumstance i think, some people may have a job they hate and would quite happily quit to earn 4 or 5k a month playing poker, then there's the lucky ones like yourself who have a job they enjoy that lets them carry on enjoying their hobby, just for a nice side income.

Me personally, if i was ever making 6-8k playing poker i'd have to seriously consider doing it for a living, no matter how stressful or boring it may become, b/c grinding a regular job for 2k per month would just seem pointless if i was making 4x that with my hobby.

The crucial factor for me in the future i think will be rakeback, if i'm ever making even close to my full time wage from rb alone then i'll start to think about it, this is may be a while into the future for me but it is definetly something that i like to think about and imagine myself doing.

But then again, if you gave me the choice between living in canada and being a snowboard instructor or playing poker full time for more money then boarding would win hands down! So i can see your point on not wanting to leave your job.
 
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I believe the big reason for younger players making it big is because when they are living at home, they need a lot less money to make it work. I have a wife and 3 kids, I have way too much to lose to be able to play pro right now. I do however like the extra money I make to have ends meet easier.
 
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I definitely don't make enough at poker myself right now. Hopefully I can keep moving up in buy ins.
 
jordanbillie

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Yeah, it is all about personal circumstance i think, some people may have a job they hate and would quite happily quit to earn 4 or 5k a month playing poker, then there's the lucky ones like yourself who have a job they enjoy that lets them carry on enjoying their hobby, just for a nice side income.

Me personally, if i was ever making 6-8k playing poker i'd have to seriously consider doing it for a living, no matter how stressful or boring it may become, b/c grinding a regular job for 2k per month would just seem pointless if i was making 4x that with my hobby.

The crucial factor for me in the future i think will be rakeback, if i'm ever making even close to my full time wage from rb alone then i'll start to think about it, this is may be a while into the future for me but it is definetly something that i like to think about and imagine myself doing.

But then again, if you gave me the choice between living in canada and being a snowboard instructor or playing poker full time for more money then boarding would win hands down! So i can see your point on not wanting to leave your job.

That is a really good point about rakeback. That would be pretty sick if you were working 30-40 hrs/wk making $2-3K/month, and also making $2-3k/month just from rakeback.
 
rcrocketman

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Thx for the nice answer. I dont have a big bankroll, and I dont make 1350$ a week, but I hate my so called, minimum wage 'job' so much.
Im thinking that I at least make more money on poker than on my current job, but I guess becoming a pro would eventually drive me mad (and broke).

So.. work less & play more - switch to working part-time hours and then put some more time in on the tables to see how it goes for you.
Personally I think the strain of knowing one needs to play in order to sustain a living would suck. ie. you get the flu, you just don't feel like playing, etc. etc.,.. I'm imagining that there'd be times you'd be feeling obligated to play even while not really wanting to & then would obviously not be playing your A-game then anyways.
I think that many players are enthralled with the the thought of 'living like the pros' they see on tv. My guess is that the journey getting there isn't so glamorour and these days it's probably a much more difficult road to travel than it used to be back in early 90's.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I believe the big reason for younger players making it big is because when they are living at home, they need a lot less money to make it work. I have a wife and 3 kids, I have way too much to lose to be able to play pro right now. I do however like the extra money I make to have ends meet easier.

This is practically the definition of playing with scared money.
 
D

DealtToHero

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I'm a pro, and I'll tell you that you're asking the wrong question. If you are good enough to go pro, you'll already have enough money. The general consensus is that you need 6 months of expenses in the bank plus your bankroll.

Doops made some great posts as well.
 
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