Math or Instincts?

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Wolfpack43ACC

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When it comes down to YOUR personal poker game which do you rely on more?

A. Math
B. Instincts

Instincts for me. I think it trumps math everytime and there is no feeling you should trust more than your gut feeling, even if you end up being wrong.
 
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upperdawg

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for me its both.i take my time n figure the odds n then try 2 figure if hes bluffing with instink:)
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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Guess I'll specify. You have to choose one!
 
JessyMoneyAA

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For me it's both too .But instinct is a bit more important for me.

Sometimes when someone bets and even if I get the righ pot odds to call, I fold because of my instinct. And at the end it's the right choice. :cool:
 
Snowmobiler

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I use math as the basis for my play,and my instincts cause me to go against the math at times.
 
zachvac

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umm you cannot use math. Do you mean logic? I never think "hey since 2+2=4 he's bluffing" or "since the slope of y=2x+3 is 2 he must have the nuts here". I use logic every time though, and as you use it more and more your instinct picks it up. You think about what they are doing and the reasoning behind their plays and you can reverse-engineer their range. When you say instinct you are still using logic you just don't understand the logic. But that's ok because our brain is very powerful and picks up on things that we don't consciously notice.
 
JessyMoneyAA

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I think if poker was just based on math nobody would play this game or maybe just the players who are just interested at winning money . Good instincts can be learned with the years of poker experience.
 
Snowmobiler

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umm you cannot use math. Do you mean logic? I never think "hey since 2+2=4 he's bluffing" or "since the slope of y=2x+3 is 2 he must have the nuts here". I use logic every time though, and as you use it more and more your instinct picks it up. You think about what they are doing and the reasoning behind their plays and you can reverse-engineer their range. When you say instinct you are still using logic you just don't understand the logic. But that's ok because our brain is very powerful and picks up on things that we don't consciously notice.


When I think of using math, it is to decide do I have odds to draw and to chose bets that dont give correct odds.
It seems you need math to make these calculations
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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Instinct and logic are 2 very different things

Logic: reasoned and reasonable judgment
Instinct: inborn pattern of behavior often responsive to specific stimuli

Two things that are 100% different from one another. Me thinks Zac's umbrella is on a wee too tight.
 
zachvac

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When I think of using math, it is to decide do I have odds to draw and to chose bets that dont give correct odds.
It seems you need math to make these calculations
Well yeah, but everyone does that do they not? Even someone who claims to play by instinct isn't going to call without odds because they feel the flush is coming are they?


Instinct and logic are 2 very different things

Logic: reasoned and reasonable judgment
Instinct: inborn pattern of behavior often responsive to specific stimuli

Two things that are 100% different from one another. Me thinks Zac's umbrella is on a wee too tight.

The point is instinct is usually based on logic. For example if I hear a buzzing sound of a bee really near me I'll instinctually jump back. It's because my body knows that it does not like pain, a bee can sting causing pain, so it wants to avoid it. That's the logic behind it yet at this point in my life it is an instinct. For a little kid it may be one more amazing thing to explore and touch. Then should he/she get stung the next time they may be a little more cautious to the point where eventually it is instinct to avoid them. Just an example, but I think it's relevant.

Actually, how about you come up with an instinct in poker that is right that holds no basis in logic. Pretty sure there are none. The "instinct" that he's bluffing? It's likely a tell you've subconsciously picked up based on pattern recognition. I don't think you're dumb enough to talk about the "instinct" that you're going to hit your flush this time.
 
Snowmobiler

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Well yeah, but everyone does that do they not? Even someone who claims to play by instinct isn't going to call without odds because they feel the flush is coming are they?

This is probably a differance in levels,you play higher stakes cash,and I play low stakes donkaments where it is common for people to call flush draws without odds , and to bet 180 into a pot of 980 giving you odds for every draw.I like the Bee analogy also:willy: :ridinghor
 
ukaliks

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I go for instincs. Im no good at math, apart from workin out odds and outs. And i seem to be a above average winning player :)
 
Ice Wolf

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I like this question. It has to be instincts for me too. I dont know if instincts will trump math everytime but I know I never use it. Granted its because I don't understand the math and cant do it without a tool on my computer but I seem to do well enough without it. But lately Ive been sticking to the limit games so the math prolly isn't as important in limit because you aren't betting as much and putting as much at risk.
 
WVHillbilly

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I don't think you're dumb enough to talk about the "instinct" that you're going to hit your flush this time.

My instincts are telling me you're wrong.
 
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cjyh84

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a bit of both.
for me, its basically instincts, but i use math when i have a tuff desicion to make, so i can have more criteria for my decisions... and then i just weight them up ...

well it doesnt really matter if wolfpack meant logic or math... we all get the idea..
 
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Bernard Pugi

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I'll go for instincts. I honestly don't know how to do maths in poker. My brother is learning how to but I am just too lazy for it. If I'm not mistaken, you really have to take more time in doing maths in poker. I just want to play it on the way I like and on the way I'm good at.
 
zachvac

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99% of the people who honestly don't use logic/math and claim that it doesn't matter because of their instincts are just trying to justify being lazy and not actually trying to get better (because I mean how do you get your instincts better other than just playing?). The thing is out of the people who claim they don't use logic/math the heavy majority (especially if you're posting on a poker forum) actually do. If you're on the button with 35o and you see the players to your left are nits and you raise, you are using logic and indirectly math to define a nit. If you C/R a flop because you don't think he had it, generally it's based on the logic because his action doesn't make sense, or it's a board he'll cbet most of the time, or you picked up a tell that shows he's weak. All of the above are using logic which apart from the tell are based on math.
 
begley01

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I mostly relay on instincts but I use math in tough situations. For example I called a $6 river bet with ace high in a pot with $40. Instinct said I was beat but math said call, math was right in that situation
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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99% of the people who honestly don't use logic/math and claim that it doesn't matter because of their instincts are just trying to justify being lazy and not actually trying to get better (because I mean how do you get your instincts better other than just playing?). The thing is out of the people who claim they don't use logic/math the heavy majority (especially if you're posting on a poker forum) actually do. If you're on the button with 35o and you see the players to your left are nits and you raise, you are using logic and indirectly math to define a nit. If you C/R a flop because you don't think he had it, generally it's based on the logic because his action doesn't make sense, or it's a board he'll cbet most of the time, or you picked up a tell that shows he's weak. All of the above are using logic which apart from the tell are based on math.

Leave it to the "pro" to take a topic like this way too seriously and ruin it. You still don't understand the definition of instinct and logic, must I post it for you again? I know your fanboys, and CC crew have your back, but you don't know what the hell you're talking about so please just don't post in this thread anymore and take your posts else where.

Let me break it down for you in baseball terms so you can understand. Actually you remember the movie Major League I? Charlie Sheen, Tom Berenger, Corbin Bernson? Yea I figured you did. Well you remember the one batter in that movie that owned Ricky "Wild Thing" Vaughn no matter what? 2 AB, 2 HR's. Stay with me now. Well who did the manager call on to get the last out of the inning in that movie against the Yankees? That's right "Wild Thing", because he says and I quote "I got a feeling he's due." to the catcher. That had nothing to do with logic and everything to do with his instinct (gut feeling). The manager ignored all logic, trusted his instinct, and it worked out in the end. Now if you want me to research real MLB managers that have inserted pitchers into situations they shouldn't have been in because they felt good about their chances (IGNORING ALL LOGIC!) I will, but for now I rest my case.
 
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zachvac

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you're a moron. w/e enjoy the spam that is sure to come from the people who need posts. Probably what you were looking for anyway.
 
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billyth3kid

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gotta trust math a lot more... math will get you to fold top pair to sets, or your over pair to a bigger over pair.. most of the game is based on math... from your starting hand you play to your pot odds after the flop. at the same time i would rather be lucky than good.. in a cash game a guy at the firehall (blinds $1 $2) raises 100 under the gun... with 87 off suit on a gut feeling... gets reraised all in calls.. flops a straight vs QQ... so i would obviously rather be lucky than good...
 
Stu_Ungar

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Instinct and logic are 2 very different things

Logic: reasoned and reasonable judgment
Instinct: inborn pattern of behavior often responsive to specific stimuli

Two things that are 100% different from one another. Me thinks Zac's umbrella is on a wee too tight.

Are you saying that some people are born with an ability to play poker? In an evolutionary sense, its unlikely.. I mean in the hunter gather sense what use is playing cards?

Some people are better suited to poker than others.. they are quicker at reasoning, doing sums and all. But in reality all poker ability is learned behavior.

Pros don't go through the basic maths as much simply because they have been in a particular situation so many times that they just know what the correct decision should be.

I think you may be confusing experience with instinct.
 
StormRaven

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I could post something about everyone having a right to their own opinion, blah, blah, blah, but chose to do this instead:

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To simplify the debate, we are talking about the difference between reasoning (logic), impulse (instinct) and operations (math).

So the original question is which do you rely on the most: math or instincts, operations or impulse?

IMO - the question itself is a poor one (no offense). Good players weigh all factors and don't rely mostly on just one factor. I don't think it's "dumb" to speak of instincts in hitting a draw, Snow has a valid point, as does Zach. Perhaps, it is your instincts to make the call but often they are based upon logic - whether consciously or subconciously. Maybe the math isn't there (you aren't getting the right odds) but your gut tells you your opp is bluffing or whatever.

My point is, I don't think you will usually have one without the other (instinct & logic). Sometimes you have to go against the math, most of the time if you do it will be based upon many factors, usually involving a read on your opp.

Math is a very important factor in this game, I think you'd be a fool to play without it; I also think you'd be a fool to play relying solely upon it. :)
 
StormRaven

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I want to delete out some of the crap that showed up in my above post, the stuff that didn't copy/paste over so well but my edit button is not here. Any ideas?

Like this:
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How do I get rid of it if my edit button isn't there? And why is my edit button not there? LOL
 
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