Math In Poker

Hey guys....I was just wondering about math in poker because I heard from some guys that the higher stakes pros like Phil Ivey and the new young fearless pros don't use math in poker and just have a good understanding and concept of the game...and play by feel and situation....this is referring to Texas Hold'em...So heres what im asking....is it pointless for all the people getting a math degree that are using it towards poker to even bother? And is math just an old thing now since people these days are 4betting and 5betting with hands like 84 off and going crazy so people don't know your range and their hiding it that way....Im just wondering since I do use math while playing poker and im wondering if its pointless in this day and age...I really want some feedback on this topic because it seems like math isn't being used it poker anymore and its pointless to even use it anymore!

I think the key to winning is doing the opposite of what your opponents are doing. Therefore, with everyone else ignoring the math it will be even more profitable to invest your time into poker math. I play very low limits, so I really don't know where the tables turn from "donk" to "aggressive young pro".

trent32la said:

Hey guys....I was just wondering about math in poker because I heard from some guys that the higher stakes pros like Phil Ivey and the new young fearless pros don't use math in poker and just have a good understanding and concept of the game...and play by feel and situation....this is referring to Texas Hold'em...So heres what im asking....is it pointless for all the people getting a math degree that are using it towards poker to even bother? And is math just an old thing now since people these days are 4betting and 5betting with hands like 84 off and going crazy so people don't know your range and their hiding it that way....Im just wondering since I do use math while playing poker and im wondering if its pointless in this day and age...I really want some feedback on this topic because it seems like math isn't being used it poker anymore and its pointless to even use it anymore!

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Who told you that top players like Phil Ivey don't calculate odds? They always calculate odds, though with their experience behind the belt it's lightning fast. But I doubt that any top player, except for maybe Gus Hansen , calculates odds. hahaha

Everything in poker involves math. Everything. If you don't have a solid understand of how math relates to poker, you can't possibly be successful over the long term.

Worst thing you can do to your poker career is to try to imitate pro or think that what works for gus will work for you (by you i mean hypothetical learning player not OP)...
This is why you shouldnt learn to play by watching wsop wpt... I dont think that math isnt important, it is, specially at lower levels cash and for players playing without hud...

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I usually just go with my gut on most hands that and watch how the other players are playing and do my best to trick them or sucker them so I can get there chips. But I also use some math mainly to calculate outs and percentages of me hitting

poker game mathematical expectation, so not going anywhere odds and outs should be considered. Well, actually, the thing is a little, feeling a profitable call in different situations can be considered approximately, but this we increase the variance.

As Owen Gaines points out in Poker Math that Matters, when people talk about poker pros "not using math" but playing "by feel," they're wrong. With experience, the math becomes second nature and you actually "feel" the math. The intuitive moves that pros make are rooted in subconscious math combined with situational factors like the player they're up against, reads, etc.

I have always stated that I don't think a deep understanding of the math of the game is that important to be successful. To be honest, all of this GTO stuff that is in vogue these days is just absurd to me.

Pick up Theory of Poker or Owen Gaine's book for a basic understanding and then stop worrying about it. Understanding what lines certain player types take in certain spots and how to combat them most effectively is far more important.

dmorris68 said:

As Owen Gaines points out in Poker Math that Matters, when people talk about poker pros "not using math" but playing "by feel," they're wrong. With experience, the math becomes second nature and you actually "feel" the math. The intuitive moves that pros make are rooted in subconscious math combined with situational factors like the player they're up against, reads, etc.

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this!

Not that...

and Owen Gaines is a good friend of mine. We have actually argued about this many times before haha.

Beyond a basic grasp of the pot odds, implied odds and hand odds this is a game of logic and common sense which is not the same thing as mathematics. Many people can count every combo and tell you what the GTO correct bet size is but they don't know what the correct action is to take! It's totally insane.

Look, you can sit here all day and write out equations and percentages but if you cannot learn how to figure out what lines certain regs take in certain spots (and most importantly how to combat them effectively) then you will not be successful. THIS is the heart of NLHE.

BlackRain79 said:

Not that...

and Owen Gaines is a good friend of mine. We have actually argued about this many times before haha.

Beyond a basic grasp of the pot odds, implied odds and hand odds this is a game of logic and common sense which is not the same thing as math.

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I both agree and disagree with you, Nathan.

The part bolded is the math that Owen and I are mostly talking about. I'm not a GTO geek either -- I think it's interesting from the academic/math side, but not terribly practical. But I think Owen nails it when he says that old-school pros "feel" the basic math that you mention above: when they're priced in, what their equity in the hand is, how many outs they have to improve, etc. That's still math, they're just not thinking about it in terms of crunching numbers. It's more like memorization and recall, kinda like learning your multiplication tables, or learning how to leave a tip without a calculator (which I find surprising that some people still struggle with).

I don't think a Bill Chen understanding of math is necessary to be successful at poker either. But the basics as Owen lays out in his book are, IMO, essential to the game. And I highly recommend his book for those who are averse to math, as he presents it in an easy to digest form and focuses on just the practical math that's really necessary. With practice it will become second-nature.

Math is important and its huge advantage if you know odds and your opponents dont, which happens a lot on micro stakes. But its not only about it, and especially on high stakes its much more than math.

Math is always going to be part of it, but it's gotta be something more along the lines of the pros using a simplified version of the math. For example: One way to say you're getting even money is 1:1 which is a broken down ratio from calculating outs and probability. A much simpler way to do this is to say that if you've got 14+ outs going to the turn, you're getting even money or better, which simply includes a portion of the math done prior. My game relies heavily on understanding the other players and the dynamic of the table as a whole, so math rarely factors into my decision making, but I still have to know the likelihood of certain events.

I think its is important to know the odds in the long run. I use these facts. Please correct them if I'm wrong.
1/3; chances of pairing the board.
1/7; chances of a set with a pair.
4/10; chances of a flush with suited cards hole cards with two of the same suit on flop.

I can tell you when I first started playing poker (winning poker) I didn't know the odds much at all. My game was strictly based on reading players, and understanding which hands they felt were strong/weak and then making my decision to play based on what hand I held versus what they seemed to be telling me they had.

When my friends started showing me books on the math it kind of blew my mind, and I worked on that and got good, but my player reading has never been the same.

Overall, my winrate isn't much different to what it was prior to learning the math, and I'd argue that simply playing more would increase that anyway.

The principle of maths ( or math if you prefer) is important, if for no other reason, than to protect your stack from you! If you understand the principle of maths in poker then that (if nothing else) will help you to determine such decisions as to whether to commit some or all of your stack to a drawing hand.....in the absence of maths you wouldn't appreciate value and therefore you would (unless you are very lucky) lose a lot of the time.

its all math and ball bearings these days

trent32la said:

And is math just an old thing now since people these days are 4betting and 5betting with hands like 84 off and going crazy so people don't know your range and their hiding it that way....

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I'm not playing tourneys that are deepstacked enough to see many 4 and 5 bets, but I remember one of the guys in the 2013 November 9 talking about constructing 3-bet and 4-bet ranges based on what he knew of each opponent's play.

I don't know exactly how he used that info during the FT, but I assume he could reasonably approximate how much equity his current hand had against a particular opponent's 4-bet range for example. To do that, he likely spent time with PokerStove or Equilab to crunch the numbers. The basic odds\outs math was second nature to him long ago no doubt.

I think advanced players are quite fluent with poker math and equity, and I certainly don't want to keep making mistakes (-EV) due to weaknesses in that area.

The math side of poker always takes in effect. Obviously if you have AA and AKK come on the flop, you assume(and hope) that the other player(s) are not holding KK. This assumption could be called intuition, but it's really boils down to the odds (math) of someone having that hand. Whether you think you are using it or not, you are. As for the rest of poker, reading people and understanding the do's and don'ts are not part of the math, but still used in poker. A Math Specialist is not a poker pro, although I'm sure he could tell you the exact odds of a particular hand hitting, whether it hits or not.

I think Mike Caro said it once, if there is a 51% chance I am going to win a hand, I am calling every time. IN THE LONG RUN, using math will only help your game. It is not something you can ignore. Sure there are those that are going to get lucky, but IN THE LONG RUN, math will come out on top.

online poker, math is not much. Useful though at cash game. There are also decisions that are unclear or flip situations, and the only thing to cling to is math.

Live/brick to mortar Poker, math is very important. Results are normal and follows statistics. Thats why should know math.

Those Full Tilt commercials tend to over-emphasize the role of psychology vs math in poker. Putting your opponent on a range of hands is a mix of math and psychology, but without a good understanding of poker math, you won't know what to do with that information.

hffjd2000 said:

Online poker, math is not much.
Live/brick to mortar Poker, math is very important. Results are normal and follows statistics. Thats why should know math.

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So we don't need math as much for online... cuz it's not normal & doesn't follow statistics?

hffjd2000 said:

Online poker, math is not much. Useful though at cash game. There are also decisions that are unclear or flip situations, and the only thing to cling to is math.

Live/brick to mortar Poker, math is very important. Results are normal and follows statistics. Thats why should know math.

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Wow, not sure you how you can make this statement. I would argue the direct opposite.

Math is important in poker, period. But due to much higher volume (especially with multi-tabling) and much less "physical" information or reads to be gathered from online opponents, math is WAY more important in online poker than live poker.