Looking for some advice

First of all, hello to all. Long time lurker, don't really post too often.

I'm looking for some advice on what I should do.

First, I feel atleast that I am what I would call a decent player. I primarily play Hold Em. I don't really have a partial to fixed limit, pot limit, or no limit. I can play either fine I think. I'm definately not a donk. I primarily play premium starting cards. And typically, I'm not "that afraid" to lay down when I think I'm beat.

Second. I'm not making any money online. Years ago I dumped $50 onto Paradise Poker, got it up to $90, then invariably lost it.

A year or 2 ago, I dumped $50 onto poker stars, and did pretty much the same thing. About a month ago I put another $50, grew it to $190. I cashed out $100 and then lost the $90. So last week I threw another $50 and got it to $100, then got really pissed off at some bad beats, went to a higher limit table I had no business bein at and lost it.

So I'm pretty frustrated.


A couple things before you start telling me all your thoughts.

I play defensively mostly. And I can honestly say--I swear to you--I feel the majority of the time I'm being beaten is by suckouts, donkeys or just sheer dumb luck. I'm sure most poker players that lose money feel that way, so I've really tried to have an honest look at my play, and I still feel that way.

I've looked at what I was doing to make money, and what I was doing to lose money. Aside from the stupid decision to jump to a 3/6 table with only $60 left (yes I know it was dumb) I feel I play fairly well.

Is $50 just not enough? I'm seriously thinking that it's not. I'd really like to stay in the 5-15 $ range, as I feel that there's probably less suckouts on that level. But according to what I'm reading and heard, I'd need like $500 to do that--which is pretty much out of the question.

I could probably come up with $200 to throw online, but if I don't want it to be a waste.

I'm tired as I write this so I'm sure reading it doesn't give you an accurate reflection as to what I'm about or how I play, so feel free to ask any questions you want if it'll help give you any insight for a good suggestion.

How much $ is "good enough" online?
What limit is the right amount for good play, but without breaking the bank?
Please tell me I'm not the only one that gets my KK or AA beat by 39 suited and they hit the flush knocking me out at the bubble repeatedly.

My advice would be:

1) Choose thread titles which tell people what it's about, Looking for some advice is too ambiguous, How can I be more successful? would be much more informative

2) Playing defensively is probably not enough, you need to mix it up and include lots of TAG, but the guys here can give you much more advice than I can

Sounds like you are playing weak/tight, which is a good formula for bubbling a lot of tourneys and constantly having to reload. You should just pick one site and make a deposit strictly for playing against quality players like here at CC. Learn as you go and you will improve as time goes on. I did this about two years ago with a forum that had a daily small buyin and it was great and did wonders for my game. Also avail yourself of all the free liturature posted in this forum and don't be so quick to discard the emails you get from the sites themselves they have a lot of info in them.

BRM is a big part of being able to keep money online and until you learn what limits you should be playing you can't deposit enough money. Also from reading your OP it sounds like you're playing too passively and it's very possible that your opponents were picking up on this the longer you played on a site and pushing you out of pots. You can build from a smaller deposit and from reading your history I'd recommend a smaller deposit again. You need to learn to beat the lower limits (super suckouts and all) before moving up. I think if you deposit more $$ you'll be tempted to play bigger games where better players will just exploit your current weaknesses for bigger $$.

Shesin said:

Please tell me I'm not the only one that gets my KK or AA beat by 39 suited and they hit the flush knocking me out at the bubble repeatedly.

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Hello Shesin,

Next time this kind of hand gets dealt to you around the time of the bubble. Think about what happened last time, and the time before that.

1.What grade of a hand preflop?
2.Presentation or how you presented this hand.
3. What type of other people do you have around you. What number are before and after your play?(position)
4. How have other's reacted to your presentation.

Ring games can kill some half decent players. Especially since people can come and go so quickly. However, in a sit n go you can "get to know" the person somewhat or so to speak.

Take many, many notes on others behavior.Tourney's: I stay away from all in pre flops (Even with AA unless it's a re-buy MTT or a final table), unless I have a good stack against someone's short stack.

It doesn't matter what limit it is there can be a shark or a poor player anywhere. Just depositing more than you really should. Could be just another path of disaster for you.

my thoughts

You want to try to progress beyond preflop play and thinking about "playing good cards" and here are my suggestions:

1. start to overvalue POSITION in hold'em, experimenting (perhaps in a free roll or play money game at first) with playing a lot more hands (even any two) on the button and cut off seats.

2. AGGRESSION is the second key to success (after position). Be the better and raiser, not the caller. In fact, I want you to start to overvalue aggression as well: try not calling EVER for awhile. That's right, raise, re-raise, check, bet or FOLD.

After you take the above two concepts to the extreme you can start to phase back to more regular play, incorporating calling back into your game, and tightening up a little in position. Your need to go a bit crazy at first to learn just how powerful the above factors are in hold'em. Then you can scale back to the perfect balance.

3. $50 is plenty, just know that you can't really afford any cash games yet, and will have to stick to 50cent or $1 tournaments. There are a lot of good bankroll threads and info on this site, just use the 'search' function. That being said, "investing" $50 in the learning the importance of the above concepts so you can play real money games will be worth it long term. Expect to lose the money as tuition for your learning, the price of your education; then make a another real $50 deposit that you intend to build as a bankroll.

I am a little concerned about your attitude toward money. To dump, throw, dump and throw money online does not seem like you expect to ever see it again. If it means nothing to you that is what you will get.

Fantastic replies guys, thank you very much.

Pigpen -believe me I don't consider money a frivolous commodity I just used the term dump money online because at the time that's what it felt like I had done.

I've been doing a ton of thinking and rethinking about my game. And I agree with all of you, that putting more $$ online isn't necessarily the answer right now. I've got enough FPP's at Stars to play in the $500 freerolls for awhile, they cost only 10 FPP's. I may even venture into the 70 FPP satellite SNG where 1 entry is paid into a larger tourny. And also freerolls in general.

I've downloaded Ultimate Bet and Full Tilt as well so I can get more experience/practice in the freeroll's.

I still feel I'm a solid player, I just need to tighten up my game.

I love the advice about "not calling" for awhile. I do need to learn how to become the aggressor more, and not be afraid to commit a respectable amount of chips into the pot. I think I've become "gun shy" by bad beats, donks hitting the river that when I see decent cards in good position, I become afraid to commit more chips fearing they may not hit.

Which means I need more practice and more tightening up.

Thanks again guys.

Yes AG's comments about over-valuing position and aggression on a short-term basis are probably the most useful thing I've seen here for a while, for me personally

I tried it out last night, and it's amazing how much of a difference it makes to the way other players around the table respond to you, not just in that one specific hand but overall... they clearly rate people much more lowly when they perceive them as a passive player, or someone who doesn't fully exploit their position...

Yes, $50 is enough if you manage it.
I deposited $50 in late Sept. Last week I cashed out some, leaving me with $500. I play the micro 6-max tables on pokerstars.

I had made a deposit earlier, but donked that off. I found that my biggest problem was accountability. That is, if I was up $30 I would play crappy because I was only losing winnings. When I was down, I put my nose to the grindstone until I was up a comfortable amount. I had a lot of ups and downs like that, and realized that the downs were totally unnecessary.

In Early Oct. I decided to be serious. I moved up from from the $.01/$.02 tables (which were too tight and difficult to take seriously) and I started using the trial version of PokerTracker.

PokerTracker helped a *lot*. It made me accountable for my actions. Instead of seeing a small loss for a session as "just losing $.25" I started seeing it as a dreaded red mark on my PokerTracker stats.

I set a lot of rules for myself as well. I'm not allowed to drink if I play poker. No TV, no music (if I'm bored at the table then I'm not concentrating like I should).
I set a bankroll limit before I could move up to the $25 tables, but I had a hot streak (coming out ahead 27/28 games) and decided to increase my bankroll limit before I moved. Well, I reached that a week later. I was just about to go on Christmas vacation out-of-state, so I decided that, barring any big losses, I'd wait until New Year's to move up.

I refuse to play above my bankroll, as that's what kills a lot of players. Should I lose enough I'll move to smaller limits. Call it better management or self-punishment, it's something I'm willing to do.

What it all boils down to is discipline and accountability.
Well, there's skill involved too. I've read several books, read several forums, and have watched a lot of tutorial videos. (I haven't seen the ones on this site yet, but I've downloaded them).
Oh... and I cannot stress the importance of table selection either.

The most important thing in poker in my opinion is 1. preflopp aggression 2. hand selection.....

If you work on that you will have it

The most important thing in poker in my opinion is 1. preflopp aggression 2. hand selection.....

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So position comes further down the list than those two (for you)?

$50 is enough. That is my standard deposit, and I have built up from that to a substantial bankroll on several different sites.

Bankroll management is key, especially when your roll is at that sort of level. You just can`t afford to relax your discipline in that regard, however bad the beat was.

AG`s thoughts on position and aggression are very sound and worth re-reading.

NoWuckingFurries said:

So position comes further down the list than those two (for you)?

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Yes.

Here is a great example :

If you limp with A J offsuit on the button you will more likely loose than if you raise with AK under the gun.

Position is important, but hand selection and preflopp raise is more important.

bustme said:

Yes.

Here is a great example :

If you limp with A J offsuit on the button you will more likely loose than if you raise with AK under the gun.

Position is important, but hand selection and preflopp raise is more important.

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PLEASE don't listen to anything this guy ^^ says... this is the guy who thinks playing more passive post flop is a good idea.

Poker isn't about CARDS. People like this will forever be doomed to complaining about bad beats and will never progress beyond the relatively easy to master preflop game.

Weak players make most/more mistakes POST-flop, and you make your money when your opponents make mistakes.

aliengenius said:

PLEASE don't listen to anything this guy ^^ says... this is the guy who thinks playing more passive post flop is a good idea.

Poker isn't about CARDS. People like this will forever be doomed to complaining about bad beats and will never progress beyond the relatively easy to master preflop game.

Weak players make most/more mistakes POST-flop, and you make your money when your opponents make mistakes.

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LoL

If you use pokertracker ore pokeroffice you will realize that it is not a bad play to play tight aggressive -neutral.

Just analyze peoples stats and you will notice that it is not a bad playing style....

Many of the players that are thinking they are playing tight aggressive-aggressive is playing tight aggressive -neutral when they analyze there stats with pokeroffice ore pokertracker.

Neutral is not passive like many like A G likes to think

aliengenius said:

Weak players make most/more mistakes POST-flop, and you make your money when your opponents make mistakes.

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Quite correct. Assuming we are talking ring games (tournaments are much more complex, and these simplistic arguments fall down there), I`d suggest that the most reliably effective style for strong players is TPA.

Notice that I do not propose that everyone play this way. However, if you feel yourself to be one of the better players at the table, your edge is likely to be more pronounced post-flop.

I concur with most here. Aggression is the key. Perhaps less so at low stakes but aggression wins. You have bad cards, be aggressive and be a winner.

if your playing defensive your just fishing.

nothing new i can think of to say, but i can re enforce what was already said.

1. dont play above the stakes that you are supposed to play based on BRM.
2. feel free to be more aggressive, try to achieve a tight-assivesive playstyle. you will be surprised at how many pots you can pick up with a leadout bet after the flop.
3. read some books, i would reccommend harrington on hold'em tourney books and cash game when it comes out, and professionsal no limit hold'em by Matt Flynn and Sunny Mehta. those are the only ones ive read, and there are a lot more out there.

just deposit whatever you can, play at low stakes, and slowely build up the BR, its what ive done!!

nymets14450 said:

try to achieve a tight-assivesive playstyle

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First time I've heard that recommended here!

You can pretty easily build a solid BR at .01/.02 if you just concentrate on playing position/cards and worry less about what the players are doing. I started out with a $25 deposit and got it over $150 in a little over a month. Just grind it out.