Looking to get serious about playing

Hello! My name is Undone/Chris whichever one you want to call me. I have been a member here for about 1 year... I have been an active member for about 2 or 3 months now and really love reading peoples insights into various ways they play poker. TO THE POINT: Recently i have been playing a lot of poker (I played College Baseball and never really had the time to put into poker as i shoudl... now all i do is play golf and poker in my free time away from work and the GF) , i lost my bankroll of 50 dollars 3 times (down 150) then on my final buy in to Full Tilt i scored a few MTT wins and got my BR up to 750 dollars. Over the past few days i decided to take "a shot" and bought into the FTOPS Event #24 (didnt really get much to play with... never got a big stack... just an overal frustrating tournament) i bought into the 30k Guarentee 100 buy in (Lost with AA to AK all in preflop he floped the nut straight and laughed and called me an idiot... very angry) and lastly bought into a .5/1 with 100 and donked off another 100... Well my bankroll is roughly around 450 dollars... and some of my friends are doing very well and making money playing everynight... and i would like to begin a quest to do that... I have a few questions for people who do consistently make money.. By the way i play on full tilt poker and would like to play the MTTs because i do not feel that my cash game is good enough to win consistently... i don't know why but it seems like i get just flat beat down in them... maybe i should play 9man instead of 6man... but i do better in 6man tournaments... who knows and heres a link to my OPR http://officialpokerrankings.com/fu...lts/F147072ECD9A49F08FD11A7667D091D2.html?t=2
if you feel this can help anwser the questions

1) Should i stick with playing the same type of tournament every night? For example lets say i am pretty good at playing the $2/180 ppl tournaments... Should i stick to those? Or should i go with the larger $2 and $3 MTTs that I am pretty good at?

2) I have been reading a lot here on theory and read a lot of books... but i know i need to step up my blind v blind play and my late tournament play around the bubble (i tend to get tooooooooo tight and donk of chips on freaking idiotic calls when i should push or just fold). Do you all read anywhere else other than CardsChat that could help me with some theory.

3) I own a MAC so i cannot use the PokerTracker and other various trackers that i have read will really help step up your game.. However i have two or three friends that make serious money who don't use them either and live players cant really use them so i think i will be okay with out it... but should i take notes on people?

4) Is it best to stick to playing one tournament? Or should i try to multitable 3 or 4 tournaments at a time?

These are just some various questions... and if you want to PM me with some additional comments please feel free... i really enjoy talking about poker (while i know i am not the smartest at it but its still enjoyable to me to learn a lot)

Thanks for any of the comments that you give me good or bad..... anything will really help... i am sure there are guides on this site to this but i would like to hear various ppl from all sorts of buy in ranges and their opinions...

Thanks,
chris

Theres a thing called 'Poker Copilot' for mac, not brilliant but it gives you basic statistics about players based on hands you've played with them like how aggressive they are or how often they check-raise or fold to a continuation bet etc.

However taking notes is something you should never not do in my opinion, while when you play at a table you generally remember it, its useful especially if you're thinking of having a go 'properly' since you can reffer back to what you already established about players as soon as you sit down without having to actually re-establish how they play.

And multi tabling is generally if you get bored of poker, obviously the less tables you play the more you can focus on a table (But sitting there folding hand after hand for 5 hours tends to get boring and makes you fed up - Prone to playing worse hands) so really thats just a preference

Jeax said:

However taking notes is something you should never not do in my opinion, while when you play at a table you generally remember it, its useful especially if you're thinking of having a go 'properly' since you can reffer back to what you already established about players as soon as you sit down without having to actually re-establish how they play.

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Yes, but my only problem with taking notes at the small limit that i am talking about is... Is it really worth it? I mean i can remember if someone is playing crazy hands or is a solid player pretty eaisily in the tournament... but how often do you run into a player multiple times on a site at this low of a limit in MTT... you are prob right... i should take notes... and i did for a week once.. but i never saw anyone that i had previously taken notes on... that was my problem and the reason i am really down on note taking (i know every guide says to do it, but i feel that most guides are directed to higher stakes than what i will be starting at)

undone said:

Yes, but my only problem with taking notes at the small limit that i am talking about is... Is it really worth it? I mean i can remember is someone is playing crazy hands and what not pretty eaisily in the tournament... but how often do you run into a player multiple times on a site at this low of a limit in MTT... you are prob right... i should take notes... and i did for a week once.. but i never saw anyone again that i have taken notes on... that was my problem and the reason i am really down on note taking (i know every guide says to do it, but i feel that most guides are directed to higher stakes than what i will be starting at)

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Yeah, lower stakes since theres a lot more variance of players (as well as players at the table leave and join all the time) note taking isnt all that useful, however it really is a good habit to get into. Especially if you're going to be sitting at the same table for a fairly long time, it takes 5 minutes to write notes about 8 people, now if you're going to be sitting at a table for an hour or more thats not exactly a long time, and gives you something to do while you're waiting for the hand to end. Its seriously helped me so many times, ive been in a tough call situation and checked if i had any notes on the player and decided to call (whereas a normal player i would have most probably folded) and been rewarded for it

In my opinion, anything that can increase your chances of making more money is worth it

Are you sure focusing on MTT is the best choice? Its very hard to make enough $ with them as the fields are large and the payout tiny if your playing the low stakes tourneys, its prob not worth your time.

Sure playing the occasional $10+ tourney is ok but focusing on MTT's is maybe not the best idea as you can lose your cash fast as it may take several games for you to cash in.

If you want to make consistent income cash games or SNGS is really your only option I feel...but maybe others disagree?

Ernster86 said:

Are you sure focusing on MTT is the best choice? Its very hard to make enough $ with them as the fields are large and the payout tiny if your playing the low stakes tourneys, its prob not worth your time.

Sure playing the occasional $10+ tourney is ok but focusing on MTT's is maybe not the best idea as you can lose your cash fast as it may take several games for you to cash in.

If you want to make consistent income cash games or SNGS is really your only option I feel...but maybe others disagree?

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the reason i have chosen MTT is because it is a low risk to losing your bank roll... with a very high reward... if i get one good run we are talking a 400 dollar cash for a 2 dollar put in... and i normally run pretty well in them... i have won 2 of them in 2 weeks... i feel like thats pretty decent... and one more win and i can up the buy in to 5 dollar... and so on and so forth

1) If you're choosing to play MTT's, you should be looking for tournaments that give you an edge, and possibly tournaments that have overlay. As long as they fit your bankroll, it doesn't really matter assuming the rake fee is identical.

2) 2+2, FTR.

3) A HUD is super useful for multi-tabling, which you will want to do.

4) Multi-table, unless you hate money.

Read this article: http://www.chillin411.com/node/7
And learn to use this: http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html

Also, tournaments have larger variance than cash games or sit & go's. You will experience larger fluctuations, and you will need a larger bankroll when compared to cash/SnG's. You need to stop thinking about the largest possible payout in a tournament, and think about your *average payout*. When you think about tournaments that way, they don't look like such an awesome thing compared to cash games or sit & go's.

Yeah, variance is the killer in large field MTTs, especially at the lower stakes. Heck, just look at the wsop Main Event. $10K buy-in and you still see final tables with more amateurs than pros these days, because of the sheer size of the field now.

It's very hard to consistently do well in MTTs. OTOH you don't have to win as often to show a profit, as long as you take them down often enough. Personally I prefer consistency, so while I've managed to score sizable winnings in large MTTs recently, I prefer the consistency of my SnG play. Of course if you really want to make money, IMO ring is where it's at, but you have to be much more careful with proper BR management.

I understnad what both of you all are saying.... do you think maybe i should look into the 45 man SnGs or should i be looking into the one table SnGs? I am just looking to play more consistent and have a table i feel comfortable with... I know cash games are the most profitable.. but with my small BR and my lack of expierence/confidence in cash games causes me to not do as well..

Also if you all think cash games are the best what stakes are we talking for the BR i have specified... would the .05/.1 be the best? or should i go with less or more?

I am just looking for advice that will increase my level of play... and profit

I too think I'm similar to you. Ive had one big cash in a MTT and ever since it's been my passion to get another. So what Ive been doing is playing cheap SnG's and 0.05/0.10 9 person cash table to fund my MTT's. After doing this a while and never repeating my MTT big cash I decided that if I was just concentrating on the SnGs and the Cheap cash games that I do think that you can slowly grind out a profit. I still play in a few MTTs but only if I win a satelitte to them. goodluck

I think you would be better off with STT's as they are much more easy to multi table and will build a BR quicker.

Don't give up on MTT's, just try stabbing at one a day or something while using STT's to build your BR.

Just my opinion is all.

DetroitJimmy said:

I think you would be better off with STT's as they are much more easy to multi table and will build a BR quicker.

Don't give up on MTT's, just try stabbing at one a day or something while using STT's to build your BR.

Just my opinion is all.

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your opionion is well appreciated! what do you think the 5 dolars for a 450 bank roll? i know about 50 buy ins is about right... so the 5 dollar should be what im looking at... maybe the 10..?

I would go with the $10, but if you're not used to the STT format then you might want to go with the $5 ones until you see how ya do. Much more easy to play with a bigger than needed BR.

undone said:

I understnad what both of you all are saying.... do you think maybe i should look into the 45 man SnGs or should i be looking into the one table SnGs?

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It doesn't matter what you choose to play. MTT's are profitable, and there's a lot of dead money and bad players in them. But they require a bigger bankroll than cash games or single table SnG's (see image below).



Also, its hard to know when you're doing well because the variance is large. Its easy to luck-box a big cash in MTT's and convince yourself that you're good at them, when in reality you're terrible. The key is to just pick the game you're best at. If you're a horrible cash player, and a good MTT player, it would be pretty terrible to move to cash games. Play the game that you're the best at. But if you're not particularly good at any particular form of poker, then I'd pick cash games or single table SnG's to start out with.

undone said:

I know cash games are the most profitable.. but with my small BR and my lack of expierence/confidence in cash games causes me to not do as well..

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Once again, cash isn't necessarily the most profitable game. It depends on what you're good at. But cash games actually require a *smaller* bankroll than MTT's. Most players eventually migrate towards cash games as they get more experienced for a variety of reasons, but saying its the most profitable form of poker is a little silly I think.

undone said:

I am just looking for advice that will increase my level of play... and profit

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I think you could really use this thread:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/

The only reason i say i think i am best at MTT is because i am ITM 21% of the time and before my shot with the two hundreds i was up around 700... with my ROI around 125%... i feel confident with a MTT that i will be about to make close to the money or a late run at it... Now i suppose since i have cashed for 222... 328... and 158... over the past month.. along with some other cashes that are not over 100.. but still decent enough... i feel like i am pretty decent... however, this numbers could be decieving (i honestly do not know...) and i know this thread is probably hard to decifer how good i am (i am okay i guess i dont really know that either)

So i suppose what i am getting out of your comments c9 is i just have to keep at something for a while and see if i am truly profitable at it? Then read and learn as much as i can about that... then migrate to a different game if i get bored with it... by the way your comments have been very insightful and helpful... i do appreciate that...

undone said:

with my ROI around 125%

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Your sample size is too small, but 125% ain't bad at all to start out. Also, your ITM percentage is pretty meaningless. What matters is your ROI. Play like 200-300 tournaments that have similar field sizes, prize pools, and stake levels, and then evaluate your ROI. That'll give you an idea on how good you are.

undone said:

So i suppose what i am getting out of your comments c9 is i just have to keep at something for a while and see if i am truly profitable at it? Then read and learn as much as i can about that... then migrate to a different game if i get bored with it... by the way your comments have been very insightful and helpful... i do appreciate that...

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Yeah, stick with 1-2 games for a while. If you're playing a ton of stuff, its hard to really progress much. It seems like you've had some cashes in MTT's, and you've probably got some experience under your belt. I'd stick with those for a while, as long as you think you can stomach the variance when the inevitable string of 50 tournaments with no cashes comes around.

Hi,
I can't give you valuable advice as I'm in the same place as you, trying to start play seriously, increase my BR and win some cash

So, all I can tell you is keep working hard, reading and learning articles, and of course play, as I think experience is fundamental too.

So, I just want to wish you the best in your quest

thanks for all the advice... i really appreciate it.. also if u ever catch me on FTP say hey or feel free to IM me on AIM or PM me on here if you ever wanna run some ideas for me or check in with how im doing... yall will see me posting around here anyways... any more advice would be helpful..

undone said:

I understnad what both of you all are saying.... do you think maybe i should look into the 45 man SnGs or should i be looking into the one table SnGs? I am just looking to play more consistent and have a table i feel comfortable with... I know cash games are the most profitable.. but with my small BR and my lack of expierence/confidence in cash games causes me to not do as well..

Also if you all think cash games are the best what stakes are we talking for the BR i have specified... would the .05/.1 be the best? or should i go with less or more?

I am just looking for advice that will increase my level of play... and profit

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You really need to read articles on BRM. with a BR of $450 you are correct, you should be playing .05/.10 (10nl) and when you hit $500 you should be taking some shots at .10/.25 (25nl) with the intentions of going back to 10nl if your BR drops below $450. That's what I use for a number is 20 buyins. However, the more of a BR nit you are the less of a swing you will see in your BR. A pretty standard BRM strategy is no more than 5% of your BR on the table for any cash game. And only buyin to an MTT for 1 to 2% of your BR. With single table SnG's I would say no more than 5% for a buyin at the max, but you should try to keep it around 2% as well. You want to build a good foundation and if you practice proper BRM and you are truly a winning player, you will never go broke!!!

i try to tell everyone i respond to on here...if you really wanna make money and profit at this game...learn to play long sessions at cash tables...sure you wont get a big score like you might in a tourney, but you will see a steady build in your bankroll

i would also refrain from playing several tournaments at once...in tournaments you really need to be paying attention to your table and know when you can make a move to sustain your stack in the instance of a dead card run...i play about 1 tournament a week live and one online...the rest i play cash tables and never play more than two at a time

cheers and gl
wooter

undone said:

Yes, but my only problem with taking notes at the small limit that i am talking about is... Is it really worth it? I mean i can remember if someone is playing crazy hands or is a solid player pretty eaisily in the tournament... but how often do you run into a player multiple times on a site at this low of a limit in MTT... you are prob right... i should take notes... and i did for a week once.. but i never saw anyone that i had previously taken notes on... that was my problem and the reason i am really down on note taking (i know every guide says to do it, but i feel that most guides are directed to higher stakes than what i will be starting at)

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There's a TON more things that one can include in one's notes aside from "a crazy player playing crazy hands", etc. It doesn't matter if you see them again in the future (although you will.. if you become a regular... I will often have prior notes on 3 or 4 players on my table)... you will be seeing them later that same game.
I'd suggest reading a thread on what others are putting in their notes while on the tables.... it is all the kind of stuff for 'playing the player'.

There is TONS of stuff to read all over the internet. Too difficult for me to summarize where & what to look for.. and for sure I read stuff outside of CC.. actually most of the stuff I read isn't on CC.

Advice as far as buyins go..... you will never maintain a bankroll by playing in MTT's that are equivalent to 15-20% of your total bankroll. Alot of good, regular MTT players will often go 20 mtts in a row without cashing.. it is normal. Sure sometimes you'll cash in a few consecutively but it is not the overall nature of the beast. I think first place to start off.... look up Bankroll Management because it doesn't matter how good of a player you are, if you don't practise decent Bankroll Management you will for sure go busto (again).

Play the games you're most interested in.. as they will more than likely be the ones you'll be most interested in studying and learning more about.

one other note... from what i'm reading here... you're considering mult-tabling MTT's. My advice to you is... .stick to just one or two for now. THere's LOTS to learn as far as playing the player goes. My guess is that if you're multi-tabling with where you're at right now, you're mostly only going to be playing your own two cards (not alot of room for advancement with that).

bankroll management man, you shouldnt be putting $100 in a tourney. Use your money wisely, you will end up making more money in the long run and it will last you a lot longer