Let's forget the face cards

A

audacity

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I have only been playing online poker for 4 years.

I realize the cards used come from a gaming context where Jacks, Queens, etc had 'special' value in certain games.

But with poker, I so often find myself doing some quick statistics - and I'll think, ok 13 cards total (It's amazing how often I have to count 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - wait, where was I - oh yeah 9 10 J Q K A)- to recompute 13 because I forget...

But my point is - the face cards ? TECHNICALLY are nothing special, they are just the 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th most valuable cards.

My BIG point here is - there is nothing special about ten thirteenths vs say nine thirteenths...

Now me? I take 13 and divide by 2 and round up to 8.

So in MY mind - since I never could understand the 100+ youtube videos and articles I've read on 'what you MUST do - how you MUST think' I just figured - gee, I'm a senior software engineer who started University at age 12, I SHOULD be able to grasp the basic probability and statistics needed to play this game - including statistics on players behaviors so as to play them too :)

So me? I DO think 8 in a game with 13 ordinal positions IS meaningful because that's the FIRST one on the UPSIDE - of half way, and that's ONLY because higher ordinal position wins.

I say ordinal because it makes me look smart, no really, relational databases - my professor would stress 'ordinality and cardinality' But I would get confused until - and I'll share this to the benefit of all reading this because it's critical in understanding set theory and the 13 poker cards, sure sure a super set of 4 sets of 13 on tops of that... but...

For those that like I - were once confused on the value of the concept of ordinal vs cardinal...

In any 'set' - cardinality is what guarnatees UNIQUE symbols - and ordinality is the arbitrary order of those symbols.

So take the alphabet - the cardinality is the set of A through Z, and the ordinality short of maybe how the Greeks actually had a purpose for Alpha to come first before Omega? In our culture - the ordinality really doesn't matter.

But in a set of 13 numbers ? 1 to 13 ? In poker? Ordnality means much more, because of course a member of the set (the deck) that has a higher ordinal value will 'win' against one of a lower.

So when I think about face cards? Maybe I'm alone on this, but there really is nothing special about J Q K A short of they are near the upper end.

I mean, 10 is next in line, 9 is to..

So - where I consider 8 the BASE to start caring? that means I have 13-5 = cards I want to be interested in.

Just Tim math here- but me? I value 8 through A, as they are ALL above the half way point.

I really am trying to make a point here and that is - I don't think it's proper to think J is anything TRULY more special to 10 than 10 is to 9... BUT... J Q K A - the face cards drop the # - so I think people somehow think they are 'magical' or 'SUPER KILLER CARDS'...

To that - I'm just saying I think most people - me no longer ever since I started thinking about this - think that 10 10 as to 9 9 is NOT the same as JJ as to 10 10... Because they think Jacks are 'special' simply because of the face card - symbol- the CHANGE in how it's illustrated...

Maybe poker could start to be played with simply cards with numbers. I mean, it SHOULD be the SAME game, but for most? they'd say it wouldn't be the same game, but it IS the same... Alas my point, face cards I think mislead people... Oh they are HIGHER in ordinal position in the set- sure... But 10 is higher than 9 too, and by THAT reasoning, 10 10 I'm just saying, in most peoples minds isn't valued QUITE the same as people value face cards.

I really hope I contributed to someones thinking here...
 
phantomjiujitsu

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Yep, I think a lot in these same terms but I dont do drugs so I dont think about it as hard as you do LOL
 
terryk

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What! :eek: So what ur sayin is,,,,,,10 is higher than 9? Gold! Pure gold!! You gotta right a book man,and get this stuff out to the masses! :icon_rabb
 
bekel285

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That was a very long winded way of stateing the obvious lol
 
P

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Lol that's a mind rape...i read that and I'm actually more confused about whether you're raping people's mind intentionally or accidentally!:confused:
 
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But in a set of 13 numbers ? 1 to 13 ? In poker? Ordnality means much more, because of course a member of the set (the deck) that has a higher ordinal value will 'win' against one of a lower.
I think I understand your point - that a J could be displayed on the card as 11 (instead of picture), Q as 12, K as 13. That these "face" cards are often valued more by a player JUST because of face appearance; however, their value is still only relative to the cards next to them in ordernality.

While this ordinality idea might work well in poker - let's inspect the card game blackjack. In blackjack the JQK are all equal to 10. So to a blackjack player the face card has equal value to a 10, where 10,J,Q,K are all > 9. Furthermore an A is a 1 or 11 and an A<>J.

I understand where you are going with the appearance of a J being as 11, Q as 12 and K as 13 instead of face appearance, but with deck of cards being used to play many games where J,Q,K cannot be thought of as 11,12, 13 then it is unlikely to be changed. It is interesting to have thought about if a J were 11 if poker players would value it subjectively more or less. Mathematically though, this point remains the same.
 
hugh blair

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Yes you are right about possibly forgetting the face cards and thinking of them as 11 12 13 and 14 strong and people do have stronger attachment to pictures as that is the way our brains our wired most of the time.:albertein
Shorter sentences and one good picture could of got that point across better as people lose focus on paragraphs of info due to the tunnel vision the brain works most of the time in the majority of the population but I can appreciate your post made me think good luck.:hahaha:


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BriceNice

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You're overthinking it buddy, pocket aces are the best 72 is the worst there you go thats all you need.
 
Peppinotom

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So system engineer, huh? PLZ explain a little bit further how 13 divided by 2 is rounded up 8?
Makes seven sense here? Do you have to do all your calculation from the scratchboard now?
 
MattRyder

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You lost me when you said "there really is nothing special about J Q K A short of they are near the upper end." That's the whole point isn't it? To have the best hand, which usually means being "near the upper end"?
 
pepsilv

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I agree explain it more precise 13/2= 6.5. rounding it would be 7 not 8 are you trying to confuse someone or is your theory not well explained.
 
cracker

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If A,2,3,4,5 or 1,2,3,4,5 is the lowest straight and 10,J,Q,K,A or 10,11,12,13,14 is the highest straight then there are 14 cards in a suit X 4 suits so there should be 56 cards in a deck. Where did the other 4 go. But when you buy a deck of cards there are also 2 Jokers making 54 cards in a deck. I'm so confused???:confused:
 
Martin

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If A,2,3,4,5 or 1,2,3,4,5 is the lowest straight and 10,J,Q,K,A or 10,11,12,13,14 is the highest straight then there are 14 cards in a suit X 4 suits so there should be 56 cards in a deck. Where did the other 4 go. But when you buy a deck of cards there are also 2 Jokers making 54 cards in a deck. I'm so confused???:confused:

In your example you counted aces twice, so there are 13 cards in a suit.
 
N

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You are making HUGE ASSUMPTIONS when you state “I think most people”
In actuality you have absolutely no idea what most people think…….. NO ONE DOES!.
No matter whether there were numbers assigned to face cards instead of pictures is irrelevant, the human mind is astute enough to realize that the value of a 11(J) is better than the value of a 10; or the value of 12(Q) is better than 11(J) or the value of 13(K) is better than 12(Q) and of course the value of 14(A) has greater value compared to a 13(K).
Even though we use pictures on face cards to evaluate our holdings, we are still using basic mathematically reasoning behind these evaluations whether or not there is any consciousness to this fact.
 
Alex Sentsov

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Very big text. About very simple things.
 
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