Learning PLO: Playing bottom set on a dry board

I just recently started learning & playing PLO. I'm playing micro-stakes online now as my first stepping stool of the learning curve (2/5).

I've done alright my first couple sessions, but have gotten myself in trouble with bottom set a couple of times.

I know in NLHE set-on-set is generally a go-broke cooler situation, but I am wondering if I am overplaying my bottom-set hands in PLO. If it's 3-bet on the flop (in a deep game), is it usually a good idea to chuck the bottom set?

Here are a couple of hands which got me in trouble (also, note that I have a pretty aggressive image when I play, so people tend to give me more action than they should in a lot of situations):


full tilt poker Game #13112280190: Table Minturn (6 max) - $0.02/$0.05 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 0:28:26 ET - 2009/06/30
Seat 1: kimkbooty ($3.76)
Seat 2: hhw56409578 ($5.20)
Seat 3: husoakk ($16.19)
Seat 4: ItsA7cardGame ($1.29)
Seat 5: WOTEugene ($9.12)
Seat 6: callmebeibe ($19.95)
ItsA7cardGame posts the small blind of $0.02
WOTEugene posts the big blind of $0.05
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to WOTEugene [7s 8h 2h 2c]
callmebeibe raises to $0.15
kimkbooty calls $0.15
hhw56409578 has 15 seconds left to act
hhw56409578 folds
husoakk folds
ItsA7cardGame folds
WOTEugene calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [3c 2d Kd]
WOTEugene bets $0.47
callmebeibe raises to $0.94
kimkbooty folds
WOTEugene raises to $3.29
callmebeibe raises to $5.64
WOTEugene has 15 seconds left to act
WOTEugene raises to $8.97, and is all in
callmebeibe calls $3.33
WOTEugene shows [7s 8h 2h 2c]
callmebeibe shows [5s Ks 6c Kc]
*** TURN *** [3c 2d Kd] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [3c 2d Kd Ts] [Qd]
WOTEugene shows three of a kind, Twos
callmebeibe shows three of a kind, Kings
callmebeibe wins the pot ($17.19) with three of a kind, Kings
WOTEugene is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18.41 | Rake $1.22
Board: [3c 2d Kd Ts Qd]
Seat 1: kimkbooty folded on the Flop
Seat 2: hhw56409578 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: husoakk (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: ItsA7cardGame (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: WOTEugene (big blind) showed [7s 8h 2h 2c] and lost with three of a kind, Twos
Seat 6: callmebeibe showed [5s Ks 6c Kc] and won ($17.19) with three of a kind, Kings


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Full Tilt poker game #13113180959: Table Minturn (6 max) - $0.02/$0.05 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 1:28:35 ET - 2009/06/30
Seat 1: kimkbooty ($13.52)
Seat 2: hhw56409578 ($5)
Seat 3: kaiserdraco ($1.85)
Seat 4: TJCanuk ($1.01)
Seat 5: WOTEugene ($14.04)
Seat 6: Ed B 718 ($2)
kaiserdraco posts the small blind of $0.02
TJCanuk posts the big blind of $0.05
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to WOTEugene [3h Jh Td 3d]
WOTEugene raises to $0.15
Ed B 718 folds
kimkbooty raises to $0.25
hhw56409578 folds
kaiserdraco folds
TJCanuk folds
WOTEugene calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [6d 3s 8h]
WOTEugene bets $0.57
kimkbooty raises to $2.28
WOTEugene raises to $7.41
kimkbooty has 15 seconds left to act
kimkbooty raises to $13.27, and is all in
WOTEugene calls $5.86
kimkbooty shows [6h 8d Ac 8s]
WOTEugene shows [3h Jh Td 3d]
*** TURN *** [6d 3s 8h] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [6d 3s 8h 8c] [6s]
kimkbooty shows four of a kind, Eights
WOTEugene shows a full house, Threes full of Eights
kimkbooty wins the pot ($25.31) with four of a kind, Eights
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $27.11 | Rake $1.80
Board: [6d 3s 8h 8c 6s]
Seat 1: kimkbooty showed [6h 8d Ac 8s] and won ($25.31) with four of a kind, Eights
Seat 2: hhw56409578 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: kaiserdraco (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: TJCanuk (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: WOTEugene showed [3h Jh Td 3d] and lost with a full house, Threes full of Eights
Seat 6: Ed B 718 didn't bet (folded)

Bottom and Middle set in PLO are dangerous hands. I wouldn't call them "sucker" hands as other people do, but you can't play them like you would in holdem. You have to understand that you really are not that good with bottom set because of all the other cards that people can have.

Depending on the game, or whos in the hand, checking them on the flop or river is probly a good idea, especially when its 2s. You will win small pots and lose big ones with hands like those so you are better off keeping the pot small.

I don't really like your raise pre-flop in the second hand. I don't really see that your hand is worth the raise, not drawing to any nut flush, only using 2 cards for straight draws, and containing a bad pair. It just allows people to bet more, which you don't want to happen with such a small pair. I (am also new to omaha and in no way an expert) don't consider pairs or any value unless they are: 1) Jacks or higher, or 2) help my other cards ie 10,9,8,7,7.

I recently took a trip to AC and got to play PLO live for the first time. It was a lot of fun, and I really do enjoy the action that you just don't really find in holdem that much any more. I lost a huge hand overplaying a set of jacks with a king on the board. It will happen, but you want to minimize the cases that it does. I do that by not giving low pairs in my hand really any value.

After writing this post I kinda of think small pairs in omaha are like KQ in holdem. They will win small pots from time to time, but you dont' want to commit a lot of chips to them without having the nuts.

white_lytning said:

I don't really like your raise pre-flop in the second hand. I don't really see that your hand is worth the raise, not drawing to any nut flush, only using 2 cards for straight draws, and containing a bad pair. It just allows people to bet more, which you don't want to happen with such a small pair. I (am also new to omaha and in no way an expert) don't consider pairs or any value unless they are: 1) Jacks or higher, or 2) help my other cards ie 10,9,8,7,7.

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That play is part of my aggressive image, something that I carried over from my NLHE game... the purpose of the play is to essentially catch a set that nobody would put me on. The pre-flop raise is there to jack the pot up to leverage someone's whole stack in if I hit. I'd play and show down over pairs very aggressively like that, trying to convince the table that I'm an over-aggressive maniac/donkey... but apparently these bottom sets are trouble hands in PLO. Still, I didn't do too badly for my first 30 minutes playing the game

People play cards differently and I don't think its right to say that you did something right or wrong. That explanation makes sense I guess.

I just think table image is less important in omaha. Its such a drawing game, aggression just dosn't pay off the way it does in holdem. Especially with small pairs like that. If you are going to be aggressive, thats fine, but then you have to deal with getting caught. Small pairs, just are not as good in this game than in hold em. They don't win as many pots, even when they do hit. Its harder to bluff and more hands go to show downs in omaha. You have to catch up or that aggression is kinda of building the pot to work against you.

Eugenius said:

That play is part of my aggressive image, something that I carried over from my NLHE game... the purpose of the play is to essentially catch a set that nobody would put me on.

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Right, nobody will put u on bottom or middle set, because only a donk would be aiming to catch that in Omaha. The faster u can forget yr NLHE 'image,' the better.

When u r raising u need to be pulling at tons of outs, str8s, flushes, sets, two prs, IN COMBINATION. In full ring particularly.

No offense but Sammy sez check call at best w lo set, and dont try pushing hands that are solid in HE (lo sets, high prs, 2 prs) unless you have tons of other outs. When looking at openers, dont look at lo prs unless there are other combinations. You really want to have 6 strong starting combinations, not a pair of As with rags. Certainly not lo prs -- I would have junked those 2 hands.

Get Farha on Omaha u will like his agro PLO style.

In the first hand, even though you have bottom set, you must realize that that board isn't necessarily 'dry'. There is 2 diamonds on board, as well as the king. KK is easily part of his range, as well of various diamond draw+pair/diamond draw+set hands that have you absolutely crushed.\

Your reraise on the flop is essentially turning your hand into a bluff at this point. Basically hands that are willing to stack off with you are almost always ahead of you, or have very good equity.

Both of these hands also should be folds preflop I'm pretty sure. The biggest point is that if you play wild they're not going to adjust and stack off lighter they're just going to keep waiting to hit their hands and make more than enough up for it for when they fold the best hand. Let me give you a good nlhe analogy:

I show hand where I raised preflop and then bet/3-bet/called an all-in with bottom pair because I raise and raise all my A/K/Q-high hands so they never put me on bottom pair. See the point? It doesn't matter if they don't put you on it they're going to hit top pair/2-pair/sets way too often for you to just do this. All they have to do is wait for those hands and stack you and it makes up for the times they folded their bottom pair to your Q-high shove. There are 6 combos of nlhe hands in each player's hand. That means 6max plo is like 36 nlhe hands out there. You can understand why bottom set is not that strong. There's just too many hands and one of them may have a higher pair that flopped a set as well. I'm not saying you should be giving up with bottom set but if your opponent is looking to play for stacks you're likely no good. I'd treat it pretty similar to a TPTK type hand in nlhe. You can get good amount of value with it but when villain raises you and is looking to get money in there are times you probably want to just fold it.

zachvac said:

There are 6 combos of nlhe hands in each player's hand. That means 6max plo is like 36 nlhe hands out there.

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Yep, and because there are 6times as many combos of hands position is that much more important.

also, omaha is all about range. your goal is essentially to put yourself in position preflop to take advantage of tendencies postflop. This is basically accomplished by a variety of things such as playing suited connecting cards, playing hands that nut, and playing in position.
*You have to worry about the opponents range at all times.

for example when you stack off with bottom set vs say a wrap. You cannot think, oh its essentially a flip, so not a bad situation. <--Wrong. You're doing absolutely terrible against his range. He could easily have higher sets, and other hands that have a lot of equity against you.

zachvac said:

Both of these hands also should be folds preflop I'm pretty sure. The biggest point is that if you play wild they're not going to adjust and stack off lighter they're just going to keep waiting to hit their hands and make more than enough up for it for when they fold the best hand. Let me give you a good nlhe analogy:

I show hand where I raised preflop and then bet/3-bet/called an all-in with bottom pair because I raise and raise all my A/K/Q-high hands so they never put me on bottom pair. See the point? It doesn't matter if they don't put you on it they're going to hit top pair/2-pair/sets way too often for you to just do this. All they have to do is wait for those hands and stack you and it makes up for the times they folded their bottom pair to your Q-high shove. There are 6 combos of nlhe hands in each player's hand. That means 6max plo is like 36 nlhe hands out there. You can understand why bottom set is not that strong. There's just too many hands and one of them may have a higher pair that flopped a set as well. I'm not saying you should be giving up with bottom set but if your opponent is looking to play for stacks you're likely no good. I'd treat it pretty similar to a TPTK type hand in nlhe. You can get good amount of value with it but when villain raises you and is looking to get money in there are times you probably want to just fold it.

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Well put also. I would add Zach that when playing for stacks (which is the main game in short or HU PLO), you are pushing with huge combinations of draws, not with lowly HE hands. Sammy looks to push, isolate and stack any hand he enters. Typical HLHE starters are not enuff.
Annie put it this way to me: With Omaha, there are a lot of cards out there to beat you...
Meaning, among other things: NLHE pushing and bluffing strategies (latter in particular, on flop or streets) will not work in PLO, largely.
You explained it very well.

To the point, answering OP: "I've done alright my first couple sessions, but have gotten myself in trouble with bottom set a couple of times." Stop doing that.

Edit: Infamous is also right, those were not 'dry boards;' given all the cards in play in Omaha, such a thing hardly exists. And an overcard should have been an instant fold. Starting with 2s and 3s? Please please play me HU sometime. Anytime. Please.

Cool, thanks for the feedback guys. (And come on now, no need to be dicks - I knew I was a donkey going into the game, which is why I'm here - to speed up the learning curve).

Anyhow, I've been following some of the advice here and it's definitely improved my game in the micro-stakes. I moved on to 5/10 from the 2/5 and am up ~3 buy-ins in an hour or so.

I stopped playing the small pairs and slowed way down with non-top-sets on the flop.

Keep the advice coming!

lol makwa seems to have a thing for sammy farha

Don`t play bottom sets in PLO.Period.
More precisely, don`t play hands that have baby set potential, not even dbl suited.

like the others said, low sets are never that good unless you run into the donkeys that will overplay AA and KK in omaha no matter what the flop. Another thing to be wary about is overflushes. I don't know how many times I've overplayed a flush just to see the other guy turning over a higher one. One too many I suppose...

And as Im typing this I just had a Q high flush (Ace on board) lose to K high flush. haha.

Behrens900 said:

like the others said, low sets are never that good unless you run into the donkeys that will overplay AA and KK in omaha no matter what the flop. Another thing to be wary about is overflushes. I don't know how many times I've overplayed a flush just to see the other guy turning over a higher one. One too many I suppose...

And as Im typing this I just had a Q high flush (Ace on board) lose to K high flush. haha.

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its all situational, if i have a flush on the turn, and he checks, i vbet river lol.

if flop comes monotone, and flop goes check check, and he checks turn, im almost 100% sure he doesnt have a flush.

^obv assuming im IP

white_lytning said:

People play cards differently and I don't think its right to say that you did something right or wrong.

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Eugenius said:

That play is part of my aggressive image, something that I carried over from my NLHE game... the purpose of the play is to essentially :hahaha: catch a set that nobody would put me on. The pre-flop raise is there to jack the pot up to leverage someone's whole stack in if I hit. :laugh:

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I'm sorry!! Just laughing so hard. Guess I'm not as nice as white_lytning. I'll tell you what you did wrong all day long. And I will also call bottom sets 'sucker sets'. First off, in the 1st hand, you should have folded preflop. No pot odds with most everyone else folded, and bad position with the ugliest cards you could possibly get in Omaha. What can anyone expect from a hand like this? Anyway, being you hit, your post-flop bet was a good one, IMO. When you got reraised, you needed NOT to call (much less reraise again and again ), but FOLD. Every single card after your bottom set is a huge threat, even a pair to make your boat gives someone a better boat (or quads, as seen in your 2nd hand). By the way, your 2nd hand was almost as ugly as the first, double suited not really helping it. Raising with it UTG (when it should have been insta-folded) also a mistake.

And there is no such thing as a dry flop in Omaha. Some are just wetter than others. hehehe Really, please take no offense. You're just beginning, and Omaha can be a tough nut to crack. You are already learning from your mistakes, the most you can hope for.

Makwa said:

Right, nobody will put u on bottom or middle set, because only a donk would be aiming to catch that :laugh: in Omaha. The faster u can forget yr NLHE 'image,' the better.

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+1

Infamous1020 said:

lol makwa seems to have a thing for sammy farha

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U will too after you read the book01001111000101001001010001

Makwa said:

U will too after you read the book01001111000101001001010001

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lol actually i wont. there are many plo players that are better than he is.

Sam farha one of my favorite players. Right next to tony g and tom dwan x). Anyways there are so many bad players in pl omaha who overplay their hands. Its very hard to get sucked out and lose in omaha against bad players. If your one of those that complain about suckouts/too much luck plo is the game to play . I usually wait for very good hands, and someone else will always overplay their set or two pair, then I bust him. There are just so many bad plo players, compared to holdem where almost everyone is good. So easy to win in plo if you are good. In cash games my favorite hadn is AKQJ double suited. AAKK overrated imo, cause you cant get a monster, except for quads, which is hard. Good Luck anyways with omaha.

Haven't read through much of the thread but as far as sets go the primary rule to remember is as follows: *ahem*


But what if...? NO. No buts, it's virtually trash. And most hands that make bottom set when they make a set are not worth playing in the first place. Anything with 22, 33, 44 or 55 in it for the most part is a crappy hand.



On a more serious note. EVERYTHING is a drawing hand in omaha and that includes ANY flopped set. You are, depending on the board, at least somewhat vulnerable to extremely vulnerable even with top set. Bottom set is just trash for the most part. You are drawing to a full house and you aren't really happy till you get there. With bottom set, you often aren't happy even if you DO get to your full house. Meanwhile your opponent(s) are drawing to every straight and flush imaginable as well as higher full houses often and more often than not, one of em gets there.