OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Wow - only thing I'd say for sure is that it wouldn't be an insta-fold for me. I might end up folding, depending on the circumstances, but I definitely wouldn't throw it away without any further thought.
It depends on all sorts of things:
Reads on the player? If he's a nit, OK this is probably a fold. If he's loose and aggressive, however, maybe we've got a decision to make. Has he done this hesitating thing before? What happened previously when he did it?
Cash game or tournament? If it's a tournament, what stage are we at? Are we near the bubble, or is his M getting low? Is our M getting low, for that matter?
How much has he shoved for? Does he have more money than us? If he's shoving whatever's left from 100BB, it might be hard to call if we're deep as well. If he's shoving whatever's left from 20BB... again, maybe we've got a decision. Or if we're short for whatever reason, maybe we don't have a lot of choice either.
Long story short, you need to carefully consider a range of things before making a call on this. Maybe it is a fold, but I wouldn't pitch the hand before thinking about all of the above, and maybe a few other things too.
It depends on all sorts of things:
Reads on the player? If he's a nit, OK this is probably a fold. If he's loose and aggressive, however, maybe we've got a decision to make. Has he done this hesitating thing before? What happened previously when he did it?
Cash game or tournament? If it's a tournament, what stage are we at? Are we near the bubble, or is his M getting low? Is our M getting low, for that matter?
How much has he shoved for? Does he have more money than us? If he's shoving whatever's left from 100BB, it might be hard to call if we're deep as well. If he's shoving whatever's left from 20BB... again, maybe we've got a decision. Or if we're short for whatever reason, maybe we don't have a lot of choice either.
Long story short, you need to carefully consider a range of things before making a call on this. Maybe it is a fold, but I wouldn't pitch the hand before thinking about all of the above, and maybe a few other things too.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Note that even in that ad though (simplified example set up mostly to illustrate a catch phrase that it is), it's not simply a case of "OMGZ I have kings and there's an ace instamuck" - she claims to pick up a tell in conjunction with the ace hitting the board.
While I don't presume to be anywhere near even getting close to the league that Jennifer Harman is in, I guarantee you she isn't instamucking kings in the OP situation without thinking about a good number of the things I mentioned above.
D
dkee18
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Actually, I did that recently. Picked up AA, but hesitated before I called the bet and raise. When A came on the flop, I checked and let my opponents bet. By the time it came to the River and I couldn't see anything that could beat my set, I pushed all in. Got two calls on it one of whom had KK; won a whopping pot. So, yeah, I would have to say be careful of A on the flop, but I wouldn't necessarily fold it. Depends on how the player had been playing prior to that hand.
H
HomeBrewer
Visionary
Silver Level
I totally see where you are coming from Oz, and agree with the fact that there is a number of things to take into consideration.
However, I would have to say if your raise got called by the BB he has a pretty good chance of having you beat. He could have hit an Ace or his set. I would have to say you muck your cards at this point. The board is not friendly. Maybe he saved you some money by not check raising you. Pick your spots, and then go for the kill.
However, I would have to say if your raise got called by the BB he has a pretty good chance of having you beat. He could have hit an Ace or his set. I would have to say you muck your cards at this point. The board is not friendly. Maybe he saved you some money by not check raising you. Pick your spots, and then go for the kill.
L
LarryT503
Rock Star
Silver Level
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
OK, here's another scenario:
You're in a ring game, full table, in middle position with a 100BB stack. You've been playing fairly fast and loose. Everyone folds to you, you have QQ and raise to 4BB (standard for the game). Everyone folds to the big blind, who's playing 25BB deep and calls you, putting 8.5BB in the pot.
The flop comes K57 rainbow and the big blind shoves. There's now 29.5BB in the pot, and it'll cost you 21BB to call.
If the player is loose and aggressive, what do you do and why?
If the player is a spewy novice, what do you do and why?
If the player is a nit, what do you do and why?
Most importantly, does your answer differ from the situation in the OP, and if so then why? Remember that all we've done is knock one point off the important cards.
You're in a ring game, full table, in middle position with a 100BB stack. You've been playing fairly fast and loose. Everyone folds to you, you have QQ and raise to 4BB (standard for the game). Everyone folds to the big blind, who's playing 25BB deep and calls you, putting 8.5BB in the pot.
The flop comes K57 rainbow and the big blind shoves. There's now 29.5BB in the pot, and it'll cost you 21BB to call.
If the player is loose and aggressive, what do you do and why?
If the player is a spewy novice, what do you do and why?
If the player is a nit, what do you do and why?
Most importantly, does your answer differ from the situation in the OP, and if so then why? Remember that all we've done is knock one point off the important cards.
Bigsmak
Rock Star
Silver Level
Still a lot of people out there who will see as many flops as they can with any A.......
If its low level.. I always assume that there will be 1 A seeing the flop.
But K.... Even the idiots sometimes don't play hands like K3
F
Frankie40
Enthusiast
Silver Level
There is no question you can't instatafold the KK without having all the information of the table, the player and previous actions. The critical piece is having the ability to lay it down. I know we have all played many many tournaments where you see people go out with KK because they didn't have that ability, even though everyone on the table knew the KK was beat.
OneEyeLefty
Rock Star
Silver Level
He has no clue what you have at this point. The Ace has had to have helped him or he caught his set. Either way, you need to move onto the next hand. Folding isn't a sin and you will have a chance to win ANOTHER pot.
Lefty
Lefty
I
ivtzata
Rising Star
Silver Level
On this flop I often call because he will push me on the turn again I thing. So I will re-rase him and if he make a c-bet... whe will fold
C
crazyfool
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I hate that type of situation. At least when u have like 3 callers its an easy fold and you can forget about it. I honestly dont even mind losing kings but its annoying when you get an actual hand vs the bb and that happens.
T
TheMountainBoy
Enthusiast
Silver Level
For me, I hope to have a type of read on the opponent at this point. How many chips they have is the next biggest thing for me. It always figures that this guy will be holding the Ace. The instnt call always throws me off but if you got the feeling shove a third of the time at best.
fcumred
Visionary
Silver Level
Yes. Instant lay down..
He may have pocket 5s or 7s, he may have an Ace. He could have A 5, A 5 or even 5 7..
So I cant see how you can call.
fcumred
Visionary
Silver Level
Whats to say he hasnt got 55 or 77 ?
Not everyone who shoves all in with an Ace showing has Ace rag..
fcumred
Visionary
Silver Level
Likewise, why do you assume hes got an Ace.
He could have a pocket pair ie 5s or 7s.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
I can't see how you can make any judgement without at least the following minimum information:
- Tournament or cash game
- Villain tendencies
- Blind and stack sizes
As to the argument for raising bigger with KK to drive out ace-rag hands... sure, you could do that. But surely what we should actually be looking for is to find the price that ace-rag is willing to call at. More often than not an ace won't flop, and you'll take it down. Or even better, they miss their ace but hit their kicker and ship you loads of moneyz.
Bet so much that nobody can call you preflop, on the other hand, and you lose loads and loads of value. Premium pairs don't come around very often, are you really gonna be satisfied with only winning the blinds each time?
Bigsmak
Rock Star
Silver Level
Again... Raising more pre-flop should get the 55 and 77 out of the pot...
Solid players should not be calling huge preflop raises with these hands (most of the time)
B
bombomb
Enthusiast
Silver Level
its seems like a pretty simple decision to me, he called your raise the flop has an ace, he could have trips or an ace to beat you, you have no really good draws, i would fold almost every time unless i was a short stack in a tournament or knew that this particular player is very aggressive
J
Jake
Enthusiast
Silver Level
It's definitely situational. Although it's fishy, I can think of only a few instances where I'd call...
- if i'd seen this lead shove a couple of times already
- if the player had just lost a bad beat and was steaming
- if I had the player totally outstacked 4:1 (assuming tourney) or they were short stacked (cash)
I say it's fishy because its a real funny way to play AA or a set. I have seen players act like this with bottom two ( trying to protect the counterfeit).
- if i'd seen this lead shove a couple of times already
- if the player had just lost a bad beat and was steaming
- if I had the player totally outstacked 4:1 (assuming tourney) or they were short stacked (cash)
I say it's fishy because its a real funny way to play AA or a set. I have seen players act like this with bottom two ( trying to protect the counterfeit).