I've decided to quit bluffing... could this ever be a good idea?

I play a live $1/$2 NLHE full-ring game that usually runs 10 handed. The game is exceptionally fishy and people generally view top pair as the nuts. As a result, I've found bluffing to be so -EV that I literally never bother to try it. Could that be the smartest move, or am I missing value by completely eliminating that from my repertoire? Should I be willing to make a -EV bluff every now and then, hoping to "show it off" when called so as to get even more callers on future hands?

Try it out

bgomez89 said:

Try it out

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I have, and I am a winning player without it (although that's not saying much where I play). I'm just curious if people think I would win more by mixing in an occasional bluff against calling stations.

Define bluffing.

if no one ever folds a pair then betting lots when you have better than a pair or a good pair and not betting much/at all when you don't seems +ev

to me it depends on who ur betting against. I generally play live with the same people so I pretty much know how they play and what kinds of hands capable to playing with. I generally have better luck pulling off a bluff against against of aggressive bettor with a wide range of hands. The tight people generally have top pair good kickers and close to the nuts if they're calling big raises from ya.

It depends - the general problem with never bluffing is that it makes it very easy for your opponents to make correct decisions against you: if you're betting, you obviously have something since you never bluff.

If your opponents aren't smart enough to work that out though, are willing to pay you off whenever you hit, and can never be moved off a better hand, then I tend to agree, bluffing is of limited value.

You need to pick your spots though as even though it might seem that way, it's unlikely you'll have an entire table of opponents for which this is a valid strategy.

I certainly wouldn't extend the concept to, say, never raising light when you're in late position preflop, for example.

Bluffing is always a great option, but you definitely need to know when to stop. I haven't ever played that high stakes online, but I definitely do bluff against many of the players in .1/.25 and .05/.1. It's usually a lot about position though.

ph0n3_j4ck said:

Bluffing is always a great option, but you definitely need to know when to stop. I haven't ever played that high stakes online, but I definitely do bluff against many of the players in .1/.25 and .05/.1. It's usually a lot about position though.

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He said live? ? ? Anyways, bluffing live has got to be the hardest situation I've found myself in. It's just so hard and takes so much practice to keep composure and actually pull off a successful bluff that actually rakes in a lot of chips. You just have to find the right timing to do so, and not do it too often.

If the tables are fishy don't bluff.Fish call with almost anything.When you bluff you are betting with air.

Play your position and the other players tendencies.

Slansky on bluffing

Theory of Poker states ( in simpliest terms) Don't bluff Very loose table, Bluff Tight Players. Don't bluff if more than 1 villain. So micro/low limit fishy players will often call with a middle pair, this also depends on their personality. I have found when I have gained a very tight image that I can steal blinds and bluff successfully when the players have been at the table for awhile without much turnover, It's the new unknowns that will call. Also I have found that you can never bluff small with these guys, small bets relative to the pot invites calls.

Also getting called isn't always a bad thing, simple reason, they now know you may be bluffing and are more willing to call when you have a great hand.

Sorry for my slow response... apparently us newbies get 7 posts every 24 hours. I'll try to restrain myself in the future.

Anyway, I thought I would get a more negative reaction, but it sounds like a lot of you agree that bluffing a live table full of calling stations will only work on very rare occasions.

To answer the early post about what I mean by bluffing, I'm talking about betting with air, not semi-bluffing with some sort of draw.

What about cbetting?

WVHillbilly said:

What about cbetting?

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If I raise preflop with AKo, say to $12, get 5 callers, and the flop comes 10 8 5, I don't even bother cbetting. No way I'm getting 5 folds.

Obviously I'll cbet an overpair, a good flop, or a good draw.

msufan said:

If I raise preflop with AKo, say to $12, get 5 callers, and the flop comes 10 8 5, I don't even bother cbetting. No way I'm getting 5 folds.

Obviously I'll cbet an overpair, a good flop, or a good draw.

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I agree in the case you outlined but let's say you have 99, 3 callers and the flop is K84?

Are you betting? If so, are you bluffing?

If you quit bluffing, You will never make it to the final table or finish ITM again!
ever!

WVHillbilly said:

I agree in the case you outlined but let's say you have 99, 3 callers and the flop is K84?

Are you betting? If so, are you bluffing?

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youre value bet bluffing

if they'll call with worse stuff then it's a value bet, and you aren't folding out anything better really, so probably just a value bet actually

pcgnome said:

If you quit bluffing, You will never make it to the final table or finish ITM again!
ever!

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Oh, I'm just responding to the original question in this thread. At your cash game level the players are a lot looser, and it's generally not a good idea to bluff very often.
You can at least try to steal the blinds from the button every once & while tho.

In live games there are so many orphan pots that you are pretty much obligated to try to steal.

if you are a bad bluffer and they can tell when you try it ...then you shouldn't bluff.

but you should practice ...maybe make a video while you play with a friend

msufan said:

I play a live $1/$2 NLHE full-ring game that usually runs 10 handed. The game is exceptionally fishy and people generally view top pair as the nuts. As a result, I've found bluffing to be so -EV that I literally never bother to try it. Could that be the smartest move, or am I missing value by completely eliminating that from my repertoire? Should I be willing to make a -EV bluff every now and then, hoping to "show it off" when called so as to get even more callers on future hands?

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i have tried this out before, and it works but it is a very tough skill. What i mean is showing your bluff to induce action,
lex veldhouis does this at the wsop, but it ended up killing him. If you are playing with players that will tilt a lot, this is a great move, but players that can get pushed around will usually just become harder players to deal with if you keep bluffing and showing your bluffs.

WVHillbilly said:

I agree in the case you outlined but let's say you have 99, 3 callers and the flop is K84?

Are you betting? If so, are you bluffing?

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good scenario -- sorry, I again ran out of posts for 24 hours so I'm slow on the response

I would c-bet that scenario if I was in position and it had been checked around to me; I would not c-bet it if I was 1st or 2nd to act of the 4 people in the hand.

WVHillbilly said:

Define bluffing.

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ha, exactly what i was thinking

msufan said:

If I raise preflop with AKo, say to $12, get 5 callers, and the flop comes 10 8 5, I don't even bother cbetting. No way I'm getting 5 folds.

Obviously I'll cbet an overpair, a good flop, or a good draw.

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so you are getting 5 callers? ... heck then just wait and go all-in with AK, AA, KK, QQ .... and if you can sneak into other un-raised pots with speculative hands

you can't bluff bad players until the river unless you really over-bet ... they wanna see cards, they always think they can make something ...

but i have to say some of what you are saying doesnt add up ... at those stakes i wouldnt expect to get more than 1 or maybe 2 bad players at the table

fugitive67 said:

so you are getting 5 callers? ... heck then just wait and go all-in with AK, AA, KK, QQ .... and if you can sneak into other un-raised pots with speculative hands

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This is actually the approach I've been taking! If I get a premium hand in early position, typically I can limp in, someone raises to 12, gets 4-5 callers, and I can make it $100 or so. I usually still get 1 caller, but if not, that's $60+ for free.

It's a weird game.