Is it ok to bluff shove?

CASH GAME

Blinds 25/50.

I really believed a bluff shove was the play at the time for this pot. There were four limpers plus the blinds. I was on the button.

Flop comes AK9.

Ok, villian bets 190 into a 300 pot. Everyone folds, gets to me. I decide to float the flop since I have position and I know he makes this bet alot with bottom pair and sometimes just a draw.

Turn is a 7

Villian bets out 290 into 680 pot. I felt he was weak so I raised to 800.
he thought and thought and thought then reraised me an additional 1000. I counted out my chips, then shoved allin. It was an additional 2000 and all but one of his chips. After what seemed to be ten minutes he called.

River is an A

What did the villian have? And was this a bad play on my part? I thought the more profitable play here was to shove cause I really believed he was good enough to fold a weak hand. Is there ever a spot to make this play? Thanks for your input. I'll tell you what villain had later.

There are opportunities to bluff shove. Very few but there are. I'm guessing this was a live game otherwise he would have timed out? If you felt he was weak and he could fold the hand then shoving is a legitamate option.
The only drawback is that you might not have had enough chips to make him fold, and with one card to come he might have felt it worth the call.

i tend to only do this after the river, if he's still betting weak and i hope ive made a good read, im fine so far as ive only done this a few times lol

Definately not a daily play and very situational. I thought this was the right situation. I'll let you know what he had later.

there are times where a bluff shove will work. against bad players it is very risky but against good players it can be profitable. i don't think the shove is good with them high cards out there, my opinion don't quote me. i think a better time could be when in the blinds and you get in free and you have a pair of low cards showing. i also think it works better live than online because live games tend to be a little tighter of a game.

I totally agree. I would never make this play online. But as I said earlier, it started off as a float. He makes that flop bet with a wide range of hands. I wanted to see how it played on the turn. I though he was weak on the flop, and then I thought he was more weak on the turn.

Ok, just so you know. I made a good read, he was weak. He had a pair of 8's. He said he called because he didnt care and it was the end of the night. Frankly I think he got marred to his 8's. I'm not mad at the call cause I'm usually gonna have him beat and showing I will put my chips in on a big move like that should reward me greatly in another game.

i dont think rebluffing is a good move... he bets you reraise thats ur bluff if he goes over the top of that.... bluff time is over, time to really think about your hand and if its good enough to win... i would say he has two pair or better... if he is as bad as you say he is you can hope he has top pair and a draw... or QQ.....but when i sit at a table i assume every player is a calling station until i see other wise, wont try to make people fold..

I really like the move. A raise in his position seems really weak and you definitely took advantage of that. The only problem would be that this player is obviously very loose making alot of calls. If you noticed this when you were playing earlier at the table then you definitely should have avoided this bluff and waited for a good hand where you could bust him. But overall your read was right and he just made a strange call.....it'll work 90% of the time and the pot was large enough

after he raises you +1000 he's never folding

Although I lost this hand, did I make the most profitable decision? I really believe I shove here when I did, with the read I had, I would win this hand atleast 7 of 10 times. Folding wins 0 times. Am I wrong to think like this?

JCW78 said:

I really believe I shove here when I did, with the read I had, I would win this hand atleast 7 of 10 times.

Click to expand...

how do you deduce this?

vanquish said:

after he raises you +1000 he's never folding

Click to expand...

^^ this

don't like the shove here at all really as played


If you are going to shove bluff you have to do it in a way that maximizes your fold equity...

If you had shoved instead of raise to 800 that might have been ok.. he could only really call that with an Ace or better... Depending on how loose he may even call that with KQ/KJ... Maybe. Of course I'm not an expert on those limits and I'm sure reads play a giant role in his decision making..however....


I completely agree with Vanquish..no way you get a fold here anywhere NEAR often enough after he raises the 1k back.

You shove overtop of his 1k bet gives him GREAT odds to call you... so he is going to call you with virtually anything with the rare exception being the time he is on a bluff as well. I don't care if he has pocket fives he's not folding to your shove there after raising you the 1k very often

Are you sure you made the right decision, or are you hoping that people come here and tell you that you made the right decision to help ease the pain of losing $2000+ on a hand?

There are probably about only 6 people on these boards qualified to answer your question (through experience), and I haven't seen any of them post in this thread yet.

If I made the wrong play it doesnt bother me to hear, "You are a donk, quit wasting your time." All the will do is make me strive to get better. I spend alot of time reading, studying, going over differnet hands. So I need to be told if I played bad. How else will I know? I sure as hell don't want to continue making bad plays and thankfully for places like this I have a chance to see my play through anothers eyes. So if you ever see me post and want to unleash on me feel free. I' m here to get better and I cant get better if you all want to play nicey nice with me.

I thought about that as well. And you are probably right there. I think he folds for sure if I shove instead of raise the first time. Thats one of the questions I had but was waiting to see if anyone would think this way. I think this bluff would of been more effective had I done it this way. But at that moment I wanted it to look like I wanted a call too. I thought, at that moment, a shove there would smell a little funny and I qould get a call for sure.

It was my understanding that a person only connects with the flop 30% of the time. So if I feel he is weak and missed the flop a big raise should take it down 70% of the time. Because don't we all miss the flop that much. Is this a flawed way of thinking? If it is, let me have it!

JCW78 said:

It was my understanding that a person only connects with the flop 30% of the time. So if I feel he is weak and missed the flop a big raise should take it down 70% of the time. Because don't we all miss the flop that much. Is this a flawed way of thinking? If it is, let me have it!

Click to expand...

this is in theory a logical way of thinking about it, but your problem will lie in when you "feel" he's weak, and when the board is such that he's going to fold to your raise a large % of the time. in other words, you can't just make a "read" in most situations, your play has to be justifiable by the board, stack sizes, metagame, perceived ranges, actual ranges, and some minor factors i haven't mentioned.

an example i thought of would be like, a TAG raises from MP and you defend from the BB. let's give him the range of 88+, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9s, A8s, KQ, KQs, and 76s. when the flop comes A53r, you check, he c-bets, and you "feel" he is tight and want to take it down. because damn it, he misses 70% of the time, right?

the truth is he'll continue on that board with a lot of hands (any A, and some TT-type hands) because they're made hands and he doesn't want to be exploited so easily (if he's folding made hands, why is he raising with those hands in the first place, etc), so he'll call. (let's say he folds any non-pair, and any pair lower than an 8. you probably have decent equity against those hands, but you're folding them out! they're the ones you could be beating or have outs against!) you've invested quite a few chips into the pot and it'll probably take a lot more for you to win the pot. while you're the one putting your own chips at risk on a bluff, he's the one with the made hand, and he's leveraging you by saying "you want to bluff? you might have to wager all your chips! besides, i don't believe you'd play Ax this way anyway, you're only repping a set or a bluff!"

there's more i wanna say but i gotta study some philosophy, i'll try to get back to this

ok, thats better. ty vanquish! this is exactly the kind of feedback im looking for. i really like this play when it arises but by the looks of it i probably should of played a little different. i dont remember who said it earlier but maybe it was a better idea to shove instead of just raise. im starting to think it is quite possible i gave this guy to much credit as well in thinking he could lay down a weak hand. it is looking like even though i like this play its probably one i should avoid as its gonna cost me alot more than i was thinking over time.

4 bet shoving w/ (presumably) no equity is pretty bad unless you are super sure that villain is completely full of it. In general, you only want to be shoving with no equity on the river or when you have HUGE fold equity. The more equity you have in your semi-bluffs the less fold equity you need in order to turn a profit.

If you shove, do it directly in this case...
As played..., it wasnt all that smart imho
aC

I never like bluff shoving. Usually betting an extreme amount works just as well. If I was ever to bluff shove, I would show in hopes of someone calling next time I shove (I play hu cash)

Welll i think that if you were willing to move all of your chips in, then shoving them all in after the flop might be the better move.
I am not sure i woud ever do this!