Is it a bad beat if you feel they shouldn't have been in the hand?

Well? I mean what if you raised pre-flop with a very strong hand. Something in the good to premium starting hand category. Say AA or A/K suited, or even J/10 suited, or 10/10...

So you make your late position raise and someone from middle position calls. The board's all baby cards and they bet but for whatever reason, you think they're trying to steal. I mean it's a full table in a tournament or cash game and there's no good reason to call a sizable raise with a baby pair. But lo and behold they flopped their set, only you don't realize it until the turn or river when you suck out on them with a str8, set, or flush(you get the idea).

See, I get that it's a bad beat in terms of percentages, but in terms of good play, and knowing that I would fold a baby pair to a raise crazy-fast pre-flop, I'm not so sure it is a bad beat. I think it's one of those hands where normally you would fold that baby pair, or baby connectors, or whatever cards you know would normally be counterfeited and you feel good because even though you would have won that one time, you know that in the long run those cards will cost you money.

I'm welcoming opposing views. I'm just thinking that although technically it's a bad beat, it's kind of not one, because the person raising indicated a stronger starting hand than a baby pair or some such.

Personally, and my opinion doesn't count for much since I'm not as experienced as most of you, but I'm of the opinion that if you had a strong hand and it held up (whether unimproved or by drawing out), it can't be a bad beat. You got your money in with a good hand, and if your read leads you to believe the other person is a maniac or just extremely loose, or perhaps a stealer, then there's nothing wrong with seeing it through. It's not like you drew out with junk.

I've learned to muck small pairs to a raise too, and feel good about it, but every so often the gambling bug bites me and I'll call a moderate raise with one. If I don't hit trips on the flop though, and they bet beyond that, I'm laying down. I know that makes some of you purists cringe, but when I'm stacked deep enough and don't feel pressured, I don't mind rolling the dice once in awhile. It helps keep your image unpredictable.

the one thing i noticed in the online poker world is they bet stupid, i think we're so custom to the way pros play on tv. the pros would not go all in on 4h/7c but i see it online at the poker tables all the time. so don't take it as a bad beat because if you were playing in a real tournamet it would not be played the same

I consider a bad beat to be based on the percentages when the majority of the chips went into the pot. So, if you held an overpair against a set on the flop, and went all-in then drew out, that would be a bad beat, IMO. If the chips all went in pre-flop, then it wouldn't be a bad beat, because the best hand eventually won.

But, there's plenty of reasons to call a big bet with a baby pair in cash games or tournaments, so don't assume that all the good players are tossing their 22 when you raise 6xBB.

So out of curiosity. If you're not short stacked, and it's a full table, why call a sizable raise with a baby pair or little one gap or some such? I understand if you're priced in with pot odds, but what about if you're not? What would be some good reasons?

N.D. said:

So out of curiosity. If you're not short stacked, and it's a full table, why call a sizable raise with a baby pair or little one gap or some such? I understand if you're priced in with pot odds, but what about if you're not? What would be some good reasons?

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Deep stacked cash games there's every reason in the world to be calling raises preflop with baby pairs. Namely, calling the raise preflop is a small price to pay to take your opponents entire stack when you hit.

Sets hit roughly 1 in 8 times. 1 gap connectors are more costly to do this with alot but again are a hand that you can get paid off huge with when you do hit (not that i'm advocating calling raises vs one opponent out of position with 1-gappers mind you). Play them right and the amount you win when you hit will be greater than the amount you lose when you don't. Easier to fold 33 on an AKT board when your oponent comes out betting isn't it?

OH, and 22 is a favorite over AK preflop. So that isn't exactly a bad beat by any definition.

Coming from a purely live cash game side. Your post is an example of why we need to change up our game from time to time. What you described is, as someone has already said, a way for poor but tight players to lose a lot of their chips. If someone at the table makes similar raises with AK, AQ, AJ and you can put them on those starting hands with their raise, its not a bad play to call that raise with hands that have lots of possibilities, suited connectors, or a small pair for example.

If I know what cards your playing with, it takes a huge edge away from you. If there is a low ball flop and I hit a pair, I take the lead and control of the hand. Even if I don't hit, if i know that you missed the flop I can put tons of pressure on you with a good sized bet.

We have all seen tight players that make continuation bets. These are my targets with this kind of strategy. Let them raise, and bet on the flop. Obviously you can't do it every time, and a lot depends on your read, and the flop, but when the situation is right, its a good strategy.

Something Marty Smith said, which stuck with me.

"It's not a bad beat if you're playing marginal cards to begin with."


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CAPT. ZIGZAG said:

Something Marty Smith said, which stuck with me.

"It's not a bad beat if you're playing marginal cards to begin with."


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To put it simply, he's wrong. If you call $1 with 27o against AA, flop 277, and get the other $999 in on the flop, and then he spikes an ace, it's still a bad beat. It has to do with when the money gets into the pot as for your expectation. That's the entire concept behind implied odds: put a little bit of money in when you're behind so you can get a ton of money in if you catch up.