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vwls
Rock Star
Silver Level
I agree with makisaa. I'd rather know the board. Considering all of the times that I have made the correct pre-flop fold, based on hand strength, yet would have won the hand post-flop--I think that it would be better to be able to play those hands in winning situations than to be able to play the strongest hand in an uncertain situation. Even if I could have Aces every hand, I'd still prefer to know the board. Strong starting hands are only the start. To be any good, they need to also finish strong.
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vwls
Rock Star
Silver Level
Good point, MrPink514. I forgot that you still get to see the board fold out in the usual way. I think different situations call for different needs. I think seeing hole cards would be better in cash games, and seeing the board would be better in tourneys, when there are many more all-in situations.
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EnSabah
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Hole cards. The flop, turn and river can change the game, but if I know the hole cars I know if am losing or winning in the moment. Even if the game change later, i can expect that. With board I can see if i will make a good hand, but dont know nothing about the players. The game is about beating them, not about making hands.
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vwls
Rock Star
Silver Level
Do you think that remains true when you have the ability to play only made hands? Does it become a different game where making hands becomes the most efficient way to "beat them"? Technically, your hole cards are a made hand, however weak (for example, Q6o is Queen-high). Knowing hole cards tells you if you are winning or losing at a particular moment, so if you are losing, then you would fold, except in situations where you could bluff. Does folding in a situation where you may not be able to bluff constitute playing to make a hand?
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EnSabah
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Well, I still need to beat someone to win, even playing made hands. I know something they dont know and is a big plus for me, but my made hand still can lose. At least I can read the future board and see that coming. But still too risky.
And how strong the made hand with board reading powers I should play? Only the nuts? Then, only trips or better. I could limit too much my playing hands because I am only making one middle pair in flop but would be a winner hand if I had played.
But rethinking, I am still wrong about what I said. The game is about winning money, not about beating them (except in Tourneys
).
detroitjunkie
Visionary
Silver Level
I dont understand, does this mean I NEVER get to see the board? If you know the hole cards before hand starts, you are eventually gonna see the board anyways.
Now if this is an AI call situation preflop thats a whole different story, but I think it still depends on what I am holding. If I am weak I want to know the board, if I am strong I want to know hole cards.
Here is another twist - would you want to know opponents hole cards or you own? Question dictates you can never know both.
Now if this is an AI call situation preflop thats a whole different story, but I think it still depends on what I am holding. If I am weak I want to know the board, if I am strong I want to know hole cards.
Here is another twist - would you want to know opponents hole cards or you own? Question dictates you can never know both.
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vwls
Rock Star
Silver Level
That was actually my initial assumption.
With that said, think of how much more often you are weak. Even if your VPIP is 30%, that's 70% of your hands that you have considered to be weak.
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ph_il
...
Silver Level
I apologize if my first post was unclear. Let me reiterate with examples:
Would you rather be able know the hole cards of your opponents, but not know how the board will play out?
Example: Stacks are 75BBs deep. After a PFR and call, there is 18BBs in the pot. You hold 8s8c and your opponent holds Ah10h on a 8h-2h-As flop. You know they have the nut flush draw and TP, how do you proceed?
or
Would you rather be able to know how exactly the board will play out prior to it actually being played out, but you don't what your opponents are holding?
Example: This is pretty self-explanatory. You'll always know when your pairs will make sets, when your random cards will flop a boat, when the board will run 5 clubs cards while you hold AdAh, etc.
Would you rather be able know the hole cards of your opponents, but not know how the board will play out?
Example: Stacks are 75BBs deep. After a PFR and call, there is 18BBs in the pot. You hold 8s8c and your opponent holds Ah10h on a 8h-2h-As flop. You know they have the nut flush draw and TP, how do you proceed?
or
Would you rather be able to know how exactly the board will play out prior to it actually being played out, but you don't what your opponents are holding?
Example: This is pretty self-explanatory. You'll always know when your pairs will make sets, when your random cards will flop a boat, when the board will run 5 clubs cards while you hold AdAh, etc.
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vwls
Rock Star
Silver Level
So, knowing the hole cards, will you still be able to see the board once it plays out in the usual way?
Regardless, I would rather know the board. I'd rather get my money in with every known set or better--even two-pair, depending on the situation. I feel like the chances of winning with a known made hand are better than winning with only the strongest starting hand.
That being said, I would rather know the hole cards if it's possible to win more in the long run by stealing blinds. If I knew exactly when to raise people out of a pot or off of a hand, then I could just do that every time the opportunity presented itself. And, if they call my raises, then any losses would be minimal, in the event that they make a better hand.
Would it be more profitable to always go to the flop with the strongest starting hand or to only play starting hands that will definitely make a better-than-two-card hand? Will I make more by knowing that my opponent has either not made a hand, or has made a worse--or will I make more by knowing that I will make a good hand?
I feel like there is an actual answer to this, depending on which is more profitable.
Regardless, I would rather know the board. I'd rather get my money in with every known set or better--even two-pair, depending on the situation. I feel like the chances of winning with a known made hand are better than winning with only the strongest starting hand.
That being said, I would rather know the hole cards if it's possible to win more in the long run by stealing blinds. If I knew exactly when to raise people out of a pot or off of a hand, then I could just do that every time the opportunity presented itself. And, if they call my raises, then any losses would be minimal, in the event that they make a better hand.
Would it be more profitable to always go to the flop with the strongest starting hand or to only play starting hands that will definitely make a better-than-two-card hand? Will I make more by knowing that my opponent has either not made a hand, or has made a worse--or will I make more by knowing that I will make a good hand?
I feel like there is an actual answer to this, depending on which is more profitable.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
You're almost there with your known hole cards thought process but you stopped bluffing preflop. Now think about all the pots you can steal postflop when your opponent holds the best hand but the board run out is just too scary for him to call your big bets. If I know your hole cards I really don't have to care too much about mine.
Lheticus
Legend
Silver Level
I have mixed feelings about this, but in the end I'd want board precognition for the simple reason that if you're any good and your opponent is not, which happens quite often in my "hood" of online micro stakes, you can deduce what your opponent is likely to have a lot of the time, you don't need to SEE his hole cards.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
I assure you you'll be moving to a new upscale neighborhood with your new found spidey senses.
Lheticus
Legend
Silver Level
Am I detecting sarcasm, here? Doing exactly what I'm talking about is the very name of the game of poker, sir.
TimovieMan
Legend
Silver Level
I would rather know the hole cards. That way I can play EVERY. SINGLE. STREET. with perfect knowledge of my equity.
It would no longer be gambling, but being the casino - the odds forever in your favour.
You can value-bet to death with the best hand, never have to pay off a better hand, and get to steal a LOT of pots if you both miss.
Knowing the board gives far less info. Yes, you'll know that your deuces are making a set, but you still don't know if you're going to be up against a stronger set or not. And if you only play when you'll have the nuts, you won't be playing many hands, imo.
It would no longer be gambling, but being the casino - the odds forever in your favour.
You can value-bet to death with the best hand, never have to pay off a better hand, and get to steal a LOT of pots if you both miss.
Knowing the board gives far less info. Yes, you'll know that your deuces are making a set, but you still don't know if you're going to be up against a stronger set or not. And if you only play when you'll have the nuts, you won't be playing many hands, imo.