In an all in situation...

Hi all. In a tournament I was playing earlier, somebody pushed all in on the flop. I called and told him what I had. He said I was good and the dealer started turning the next card. I asked the dealer to slow down and to let the other guy turn his cards over first and the player refused and said that there was no point as he was drawing dead. I would of prefered him to turn his cards over regardless, but he wouldn't and so the dealer dealt the remaining cards. The player then mucked his hand and then said 'oh wait a minute, I had a straight' and then tried to retrieve his cards from the muck to take the pot.

If you raise all in on the flop and get a caller, do you not have to show your cards regardless of whether you believe you are drawing dead?

And if after all the cards are dealt, you tell the other person that they have won and then muck your hand, is your hand not dead, regardless of what you had?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated as it ruffled a few feathers. Cheers. Trevor

if cards are mucked the hand is dead, the other player can't say oh i have a straight and try and get his cards back after they're mucked. i hope he wasn't allowed to get his cards back and i hope you won the pot

wat ended up happening? after he mucks the hand is officially dead too. im really curious as in what happened

absoultely. in a tournament the cards must be turned up before the dealer continues. im a dealer. however cash games are different and the players do not have to show there cards until the showdown. but if ur in a tournament and the player mucked his cards like u said. the hand is dead and u would win the pot

Dig in the muck for the winning hand?

LMAO

If the tournament follows TDA rules (or has a similar rule of their own) the hands are supposed to be turned face up as soon as there is no more betting action to be completed - the dealer shouldn't have turned another card until this was done and the players don't have any say in it. The rule is in place to prevent collusion and chip dumping.

If the player refuses you can actually insist on seeing the hand (the same goes for cash games FWIW, since the hand went to showdown). You paid to see the cards, you can insist.

There are situations in which a "dead" hand can be retrieved from the muck with the approval of the floor or tournament supervisor but this situation sounds dodgy enough that I'd be surprised if a TD would allow it. It's not as if the guy turned over a hand that showed a straight and then had the dealer muck it by accident or anything.

@ Mooby72 , Man If I didn't know better I would say you was at a game with me last night. It was a house game and TWO different situation occured similar to this. First a player was all in and the other player watched as the river was turned over and said " Im playing the board" and the all in guy did the same. As the other player was about to muck he notice his hand was better then the board and said "hold up, I won" I thought since he claim he was playing the board and the all in guy already mucked his hand that the hand should have been over. Also the second situation a guy told the other player " you won" and tossed his cards to the deck ( mucking ) but as the board was being cleared he quickly grab his hand only to find out his hand was better. Once again I believe once you forfeit or claim a hand in anyway the hand final results should be complete.

To my understanding, in a tourney, you have to show at that point. In a live cash game, not always. I do believe you have the right to make him show after all cards are out, but If you'd have done that, you woulda lost.

As for the muck, then realize he had the st, the hand is dead as soon as it was mucked.

when it is in a showdown situation it is always the raiser who shows their cards first. In this case you should have called over the supervisor and he would have then told the man to turn over his cards.

cdidit622 said:

@ Mooby72 , Man If I didn't know better I would say you was at a game with me last night. It was a house game and TWO different situation occured similar to this. First a player was all in and the other player watched as the river was turned over and said " Im playing the board" and the all in guy did the same. As the other player was about to muck he notice his hand was better then the board and said "hold up, I won" I thought since he claim he was playing the board and the all in guy already mucked his hand that the hand should have been over. Also the second situation a guy told the other player " you won" and tossed his cards to the deck ( mucking ) but as the board was being cleared he quickly grab his hand only to find out his hand was better. Once again I believe once you forfeit or claim a hand in anyway the hand final results should be complete.

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the first hand was "almost" mucked, and cards best hand taken over verbal hand called. Once the cards are shown, It's the dealers job to identify the best hand. His hand good.

The second guy's hand is dead as soon as he mucks them.

Hi all. Thanks for your replies. In the hand, I explained that his hand was dead and that I had won the pot and 1 other player at the table agreed with me so the guy with the straight let me take it but wasn't happy about it.

I should point out that it was a cash game and not a tourny though. I was half asleep when I wrote the original post. I am confused about the difference between tourny and cash in terms of this rule though... Surely, the last aggressor always has to show his cards in both tourny and cash game play?

Thanks again for all the replies. Trevor

isohatedis said:

both hands should forfeited

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I'm confused by this response why would player A forfeit when player B mucked??

Welcome Mooby72 and Good Luck

In a cash game, the cards don't HAVE to be shown. If the hand is mucked, it's dead. In a tourney, the cards do have to be shown in most places, but some card rooms, especially where there's a lot of regulars won't always enforce this. However, in my experience, if you ask for the cards to be shown, they will be. Sounds like it worked out ok for you in the end though!

A mucked hand is dead.

Aren't you glad you didn't insist harder that he lay his cards out face up?

You did nothing wrong. He did something stupid. Lucky you!

He mucked?

If he mucked his hand---it does not matter if he had a Royal Straight Flush---his hand lost the moment his cards hit the table as mucked. His bad luck if he had a hand and did not see it in time.

I'm certainly not complaining that he didn't turn his cards over in this scenario as if he did, I wouldn't have won, but I am still unclear on the cash game ruling of having, or not having to turn your cards over... In my experience, the last agressor ALWAYS has to show his hand if requested by the other player. I used to work as a dealer in a poker club and I have never heard of the rule that protects his hand in a cash game. Sounds like a very odd rule to me and it surely defeats the purpose of 'paying for information'. I'm not even really talking about my original post any more, but is this definately a rule?

I don't believe its an actual rule. I believe they are allowed to muck their hand, but you have the right to see their cards. I think making someone show is sometimes frowned upon, but well within the rules.

Mooby72 said:

I'm certainly not complaining that he didn't turn his cards over in this scenario as if he did, I wouldn't have won, but I am still unclear on the cash game ruling of having, or not having to turn your cards over... In my experience, the last agressor ALWAYS has to show his hand if requested by the other player. I used to work as a dealer in a poker club and I have never heard of the rule that protects his hand in a cash game. Sounds like a very odd rule to me and it surely defeats the purpose of 'paying for information'. I'm not even really talking about my original post any more, but is this definately a rule?

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In most cash games it's not so much a rule as a convention. In a cash game the other player can request that any hand they've paid to see be shown but there's kind of a convention that people won't exercise that right in a lot of cases, with the expectation that at some point in the future they'll be allowed to muck a hand they don't want to show as well.

The actual rule is just that a player wanting to claim any part of the pot has to show all their cards and that any hand that goes to showdown has to be shown on request: http://www.homepokertourney.com/roberts-rules-of-poker.htm#THE_SHOWDOWN

Tournaments force you to turn the hands over to avoid problems with collusion and chip dumping. Those issues (chip dumping in particular) aren't such a big issue in cash games which is why the rule is somewhat relaxed in its application.

Just goes to show many a poker player STILL cant read the board and what the best hands are

konawajim said:

I'm confused by this response why would player A forfeit when player B mucked??

Welcome Mooby72 and Good Luck

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I think he means that both hands should forfeit, and I should get the pot