I realized something today..

..and I dont like it. Basically i understood today that i am not good enough for poker. Altough I am a consistently winning player, I win too little compared to what I loose. And I pay for my winnings with time, meaning I put in too much work compared to what I win. Now I knew that all the years Ive been playing online, because I am playing only the lowest limits with very oversolid bankroll management, but today it just struck me. You can read my story in one of my older postings (right beside the crybaby ones about variance beats that are daily business at my limits and I know it, and usually can cope with it, but sometimes its just too much).

Cliffnotes:

- Deposited 30$ in 2007 as my only deposit ever
- Played 2NL for 2 years, building a solid roll and cashing out about 4-5 times
- I play almost every day after work (while chilling and watching TV etc., not as bad as it sounds)
- Moved up to 5NL, 4-tabling

I was sick this week, so I had a lot of time to play and this showed me the exact conclusion I wrote above. Here are my lousy figures:

The BR went down to 290$ on Saturday, then made it to 322$ over the last 3 days and today within 2 hours of beats it went down to 303$. See what I mean ? I am winning, but not enough. I pay with time for it. Yet I think I cant be the badest player ever, because I see progress, it is just the time factor. But I absolutely think BR Management is the key to my winnings, being very conservative with the limits. Today showed me, that this is not enough, Im too much of a nit, wasting time (even tough I think I really got a lot more agressive at the tables). And I dont have the heart going for bigger Limits...

So I guess I should cash out and just forget poker. But then again I know I wont. And I know I need to learn a lot more.

Thanks for reading, as I wrote this I calm down, now someone handle me a hanky...

PS: Here are my stats (last time c9 called my an aggro fish, I do not think it will be a lot different, but remember, its 5NL).

Big amount of hands. You never thinking about tournaments? I guess you would be good in it with your patient style.

And about bad beats...here's mine by FullTilt:
I still cant believe this happened. The guy had only 2% chance of winning after turn.

Seat 1: ZcL (29,604)
Seat 2: murdocneverdies (16,627)
Seat 3: AtiFCOD (15,666)
Seat 4: franky2323 (14,265)
Seat 5: fber (8,905)
Seat 6: ShipTheFish (8,082)
Seat 7: Fingers121 (8,186)
Seat 8: digital717 (18,345)
Seat 9: buzzette 09 (15,650)
ZcL antes 25
murdocneverdies antes 25
AtiFCOD antes 25
franky2323 antes 25
fber antes 25
ShipTheFish antes 25
Fingers121 antes 25
digital717 antes 25
buzzette 09 antes 25
Fingers121 posts the small blind of 150
digital717 posts the big blind of 300
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AtiFCOD [Kc Jc]
buzzette 09 calls 300
ZcL folds
murdocneverdies calls 300
AtiFCOD calls 300
franky2323 folds
fber folds
ShipTheFish calls 300
Fingers121 calls 150
digital717 checks
*** FLOP *** [5c 2c Tc]
Fingers121 checks
digital717 checks
buzzette 09 bets 2,025
murdocneverdies folds
AtiFCOD has 15 seconds left to act
AtiFCOD calls 2,025
ShipTheFish raises to 7,757, and is all in
Fingers121 folds
digital717 folds
buzzette 09 calls 5,732
AtiFCOD has 15 seconds left to act
AtiFCOD raises to 15,341, and is all in
buzzette 09 calls 7,568, and is all in
AtiFCOD shows [Kc Jc]
ShipTheFish shows [Ac Td]
buzzette 09 shows [4c 6c]
Uncalled bet of 16 returned to AtiFCOD
*** TURN *** [5c 2c Tc] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [5c 2c Tc Ts] [3c]
AtiFCOD shows a flush, King high
buzzette 09 shows a straight flush, Six high
buzzette 09 wins the side pot (15,136) with a straight flush, Six high
ShipTheFish shows a flush, Ace high
buzzette 09 wins the main pot (25,296) with a straight flush, Six high
ShipTheFish: gross
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 40,432 Main pot 25,296. Side pot 15,136. | Rake 0
Board: [5c 2c Tc Ts 3c]
Seat 1: ZcL folded before the Flop
Seat 2: murdocneverdies folded on the Flop
Seat 3: AtiFCOD showed [Kc Jc] and lost with a flush, King high
Seat 4: franky2323 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: fber folded before the Flop
Seat 6: ShipTheFish (button) showed [Ac Td] and lost with a flush, Ace high
Seat 7: Fingers121 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: digital717 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: buzzette 09 showed [4c 6c] and won (40,432) with a straight flush, Six high

Hi,

nah, I really prefer cash games, tourneys are too inflexible I had a month where I only played SNGs and did ok, almost as "good" as with cash. But a 3 Table SNG takes me 2 hours of constant play, when I can just sit out or go anytime at a cash table. Nothing for me.

And that beat, well, is horrible, but as I said things like that (ok not with a str8 flush) are daily business at my tables and usually I shrug it off. But sometimes, especially on weekends, its just too much. I mean I do not want to get into the last 2hours of todays session, which started really good (in my terms, see conclusion) and went so downhill from there..

Regards,
Boro

No one really makes much profit playing these limits.
I play micro tournaments and have some profit on stars,
but time investment/winnings ratio... hahaha.

Just try to accept you aren't going to win much playing these games,
if you want to win more you need to find it in yourself to play higher limits.

I'm considering moving to Low Limit mtts. Sometime.

You can only win as much as you risk.

boro said:

..and I dont like it. Basically i understood today that i am not good enough for poker. Altough I am a consistently winning player, I win too little compared to what I loose. And I pay for my winnings with time, meaning I put in too much work compared to what I win. Now I knew that all the years Ive been playing online, because I am playing only the lowest limits with very oversolid Bankroll management, but today it just struck me. You can read my story in one of my older postings (right beside the crybaby ones about variance beats that are daily business at my limits and I know it, and usually can cope with it, but sometimes its just too much).

Cliffnotes:

- Deposited 30$ in 2007 as my only deposit ever
- Played 2NL for 2 years, building a solid roll and cashing out about 4-5 times
- I play almost every day after work (while chilling and watching TV etc., not as bad as it sounds)


- Moved up to 5NL, 4-tabling

I was sick this week, so I had a lot of time to play and this showed me the exact conclusion I wrote above. Here are my lousy figures:

The BR went down to 290$ on Saturday, then made it to 322$ over the last 3 days and today within 2 hours of beats it went down to 303$. See what I mean ? I am winning, but not enough. I pay with time for it. Yet I think I cant be the badest player ever, because I see progress, it is just the time factor. But I absolutely think BR Management is the key to my winnings, being very conservative with the limits. Today showed me, that this is not enough, Im too much of a nit, wasting time (even tough I think I really got a lot more agressive at the tables). And I dont have the heart going for bigger Limits...

So I guess I should cash out and just forget poker. But then again I know I wont. And I know I need to learn a lot more.

Thanks for reading, as I wrote this I calm down, now someone handle me a hanky...

PS: Here are my stats (last time c9 called my an aggro fish, I do not think it will be a lot different, but remember, its 5NL).

Click to expand...

nah, don't give up, you're making a slow but steady climb.
I understand your frustration but if you keep pulling money out to where you will always be at the current level your on by following strict BRM practices, then may I suggest that you don't withdrawl on your next scheduled withdrawl amount(assuming you have a specific amount in mind when you withdrawl), and build that amount up to a point where you can comfortably move up to the next level still within proper BRM.

BTW, your graph just shows us and should show you that you are a winning player.

Don't beat yourself up too much here....All of us go through this....I understand where you are coming from boro, but NiceNisus brings up a good point. No one is going to get rich at this level of poker...When you play for pennies, you get pennies, nickles you get nickles, and dimes you get dimes...etc..etc..What you do know is you have put in the time and it has benefited you in more ways that one. Don't dispare my poker peer, obviously, you enjoy what your doing here, all of us do...I know I will never get to that bigger level, unless I get real lucky, so I will continue day to day to grind it out trying to get there. Good luck

I don't see what the problem is here. You are killing your games, and although you recently hit a rough patch, it's nothing when you look at the big picture. With all due respect, your stats are borderlining on fishy, which believe it or not is a good thing. It means you have plenty of room to improve, which means you haven't 'topped out' on your skill level potential, and that means the only way to go from here is up, assuming you put in the work.

Figure out what you want out of poker. Playing under 25nl, it will most likely be for recreation or a couple hundred bucks here or there. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't occupy your entire life - there are better things to do than grind out 5nl on your free time If you intend to move up higher than that, then there's some serious coin to be made.

If you want to move up, you'll have to do a lot more than play while watching TV or eating dinner. Get a subscription to a video coaching site, start pushing yourself slowly but surely to add more tables (try not to go over 10 for now) and start studying like crazy.

I started out playing freerolls, played a bunch of tourneys with marginal success, then in late 2007 I got a subscription to stoxpoker.com and moved to the 25nl ring games. Since then I've made a living off poker, now regularly playing 200nl and 400nl, and it's all because I put in the hours.

Get to work, boro

Time is money.

If it's just a hobby I don't see the problem. Maybe you could be investing your time and money into something else more profitable? Is there some other activity or hobby that interests you? You could always consider that.

But just like Chuck said, you do have a decent amount of room for improvement if you do stick with poker. Start posting some stats and hands for analysis. Are those 6-max stats?

ChuckTs said:

I don't see what the problem is here. You are killing your games, and although you recently hit a rough patch, it's nothing when you look at the big picture. With all due respect, your stats are borderlining on fishy, which believe it or not is a good thing. It means you have plenty of room to improve, which means you haven't 'topped out' on your skill level potential, and that means the only way to go from here is up, assuming you put in the work.

Figure out what you want out of poker. Playing under 25nl, it will most likely be for recreation or a couple hundred bucks here or there. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't occupy your entire life - there are better things to do than grind out 5nl on your free time If you intend to move up higher than that, then there's some serious coin to be made.

If you want to move up, you'll have to do a lot more than play while watching TV or eating dinner. Get a subscription to a video coaching site, start pushing yourself slowly but surely to add more tables (try not to go over 10 for now) and start studying like crazy.

I started out playing freerolls, played a bunch of tourneys with marginal success, then in late 2007 I got a subscription to stoxpoker.com and moved to the 25nl ring games. Since then I've made a living off poker, now regularly playing 200nl and 400nl, and it's all because I put in the hours.

Get to work, boro

Click to expand...

Take this as a great sign.
there are only 2 players I have the utmost respect for on this forum and that is this man "ChuckT" for his cash game and "Irexes" for his tourney game.

If chuck thinks you have game then I would go with that.

If you were a stock, I'd buy it. The thing I think you have finally realized, there is no way to really get rich quick in anything. Some have proposed tournaments and I'd agree. You could probably do very well at SNG and up your earnings/time. The most important factor you have learned, to make money you have to have money and bigger limits must be played. If this is your bankroll and you enjoy the game...what is the problem?

If you want to play professionally then you will have to choke up the cash and go for it. There is nothing wrong with playing as a hobby and buying some nice things with the money you win from "chillin". Hell, you have enough experience and success that you could buy a new golf club every so often, a present for a sig. other, etc....

Stay within your bankroll, enjoy the game and always expand your knowledge. Being a good poker player says a lot of good things about an individual in my opinion.

I would kill to have a graph that looked like yours.

You are not making a lot because you are playing micros. I agree with the comments that you might want to not make a withdrawal next time and move up.

Of course, if you are not enjoying playing, then, by all means, don't play. You are playing at hobby levels and hobbies are meant to be fun.

Dam nice graph. Keep it up, many of us could learn from it.

Given you're not satisfied with your win rate, how much would be satisfactory? You can measure this any way you like, not necessarily the ways Poker Tracker does. For instance, you can set a target of at least $X per month. Or at least $Y per hour. Then, once you've decided on a target, you can make a plan to achieve it.

Also, you may want to reconsider tournaments. I play small buyin MTTs ($5.50 and under), and it doesn't take 95k hands to win $500.

Arjonius said:

Given you're not satisfied with your win rate, how much would be satisfactory? You can measure this any way you like, not necessarily the ways Poker Tracker does. For instance, you can set a target of at least $X per month. Or at least $Y per hour. Then, once you've decided on a target, you can make a plan to achieve it.

Click to expand...

If you're playing cash games, you really need to measure yourself the way PT3 does. It's unrealistic for a 5nl player to set a goal of winning $500 in less than 100k hands - $500 in 100k hands at 5nl is a very good accomplishment.

If you set more aggressive $ goals for yourself, you need to move up in stakes. If you're not ready to do that (mentally, skill wise, and w the appropriate bankroll), you're setting yourself up for failure.

ChuckTs' advice here is spot on, and he's evidence that it works - but if you're just interested in recreational play, there's absolutely nothing wrong w that. Just hope you realize that your winrate is very very solid, take pride in your accomplishment here.

Impressive stats, I can't really understand why you'd want to quit. You've been winning fairly consistently this far.. maybe you should just stop cashing out so you can move up to higher limits, you'd see a lot more profit there especially with a win rate of 11BB/hr that's pretty high.

Cashing out while you are in the micros is a big mistake. Dont touch your BR unless you absolutely have to.

You have made 100 BIs at 5nl. You are burning money by not moving up and taking shots. Your hourly could be 90 times the amount it is now if you had been using aggressive BR management and not cashing out.

At the end of the day it is your life. If you are content making 50 cents an hour playing online poker then so be it.

Thx for the replys!

I am fully aware that at these levels the progress is supposed to be slow.

I usually am really calm when it comes to beats, but sometimes I lose it (about 4-5 times a year). What happens then is unlike most pokerplayers: I cash out, no climbing in limits, no agressive donkin, none of that. So I guess this is good, but Im aware that I will not cash out and continue to built my roll instead from now on.

About the progress: What got me into ranting this thread was that I grind and grind to get up 20 bucks, and then some *#i+" happens and its gone to where I was like 4 days before. Thats whats tilting me, not the amount i made or lost. And that is what made me think.

I know Im constantly winning, but I think that the main leak in my game must be that Im not making as much out of my good hands as I should. But then again, as I see the BB/100 I realize that its the limits that keep progress slow. So I will slowly continue to only climb with a very solid BR, for 10NL this would be somewhere around 700/800$.

My graph is due to strict BR management. I totally believe this, and as ChuckT said, my stats are far from perfect, although (!) they changed since moving to 5NL. The sample is still small, but I attached a pic of my hands from October 09 on, which surely is only 5NL and the VPIP came way down

About Tourneys: I played some for fun this weekend, but Tourneys for me (!) is not where the money is made (wow what a sentence). Cash games are my thing as they are far more adjustable and less time consuming in terms of flexibility

About getting rich/going pro: I just do not have any gamble in me at all. I want to slowly make a consistent income, not get rich (oh yeah, thats a lie, i want to get filthy rich). Someone here compared me to a stock and that is where I come from, so to me poker is like daytrading stocks in terms of Risk/Reward Ratios, odds etc. Its biggest advantage is that it is far more adjustable with the lower limits. Plus I generally tend to possibilities making money from home as supplement income.

All that is part of my conservative plan. And youre right, I must have been joking, because my stats seem to be alright Sometimes I just loose it.

Regards,
Boro

PS: I absolutely have great respect you Chuck and follow your Threads/Comments closely ! :musicus:

NiceNisus said:

No one really makes much profit playing these limits.
I play micro tournaments and have some profit on stars,
but time investment/winnings ratio... hahaha.

Just try to accept you aren't going to win much playing these games,
if you want to win more you need to find it in yourself to play higher limits.

I'm considering moving to Low Limit mtts. Sometime.

You can only win as much as you risk.

Click to expand...

I fully accepted this for the last years, I just felt something needed to happen now. Im calm again and will continue as I did. I dont even want to deposit, altough I could, to move up. I will grind it out. There might be some more crybaby threads on the way

ChuckTs said:

Figure out what you want out of poker. Playing under 25nl, it will most likely be for recreation or a couple hundred bucks here or there. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it doesn't occupy your entire life - there are better things to do than grind out 5nl on your free time If you intend to move up higher than that, then there's some serious coin to be made.

If you want to move up, you'll have to do a lot more than play while watching TV or eating dinner. Get a subscription to a video coaching site, start pushing yourself slowly but surely to add more tables (try not to go over 10 for now) and start studying like crazy.

Get to work, boro

Click to expand...

Hi Chuck,

check out the new, improved 5NL stats I know there is still alot of work to do, but being tighter should be no problem for me. Its just that at these levels limping with speculative hands is tempting.

As for the time invested. I have a social life, no worries. But when I come home, lay on the couch and listen to music, I like to grind some tables, then stop and surf the web for a while then grind again an so on.

I do work on my game, thats whay Im here, thats why I read books etc. I also learned a lot from poker for my other "Hobby" Stock-Trading. I guess Im not your average recreational player.

Im happy with 4-tables for now (sometimes its 6). Some Months ago I couldnt even handle two.

So what do I want from poker ? As I said a steady supplementary (is that the right word) income. But I will take my time to move up and I will sign up for some coachoing in future.

@all other replies

Thx for the words and I do enjoy poker. But like I said...sometimes it just tilts me

Your never going to get your money for your time unless you move up in stakes. At 5NL your ever make enough for a hour rate your happy with. Its like a freeroll who really wants to sit for five hours for five bucks.

very nice stats compared to the first one you posted man..you lowered your VPIP by like 12.

im a steady grinder as you appear to be..recently i just moved up to 10NL ..only difference between this and 5NL is the extra added pot sizes. the swings can be huge and the key is to not tilt which you also appear to be doing good by not tilting..friday my BR was at $420...yesterday i went on a HUGGE downswing and the BR hit $320...disgusted with myself i shut down fulltilt only to play today..built it up to $390 today only to blow $50 on one hand (Full house vs better Full House) and it wasn bad BRM..i started to table with $10 and grew it to $50 within a couple hours. so now the BR is back around ~$350.

keep grinding bro, it will get better

Here's my 2 cents i guess. I think if youre gonna play 2nl and withdraw, it will probably take you the rest of your life to get to 10nl, lets say. I think a good strategy to move up, if you really want to move up quicker is make your withdrawals to progress your poker knowledge pool. Take the 30 bucks you made from your last 5k hands and put it into a month of deucescracked or any other inst. site, or HEM or Pokertracker, and i can comfortably say you can probably make that 30 back in no time.

As with most anything, i am just realizing poker gives back what YOU put in, the time you put into learning the game, the tendencies, the math, it all puts you ahead of the person to the right and left of you by miles, apply yourself and you will profit. its the about playing to win as much as playing to beat your opposition, expose their leaks, and the rest will flow.

I think even if you play recreationally you should put your best effort into it, and pick up knowledge here or there and eventually, without knowing, you will have the equivalent knowledge of 95k hands, in words and equations =)

Anyways, 500$=25nl, and if you beat that, who knows where you could go, think about that! /end rant

Hope you liked it! its 2am and i wanna inspire people! wooooooooo!

hello
im just starting to build my bankroll so i dont know if thats going to happen to me, but probably yes
well in your position i would ask myself a question
do i enjoy that time spent playing poker?
i think if you enjoy playing poker, and have some time to keep improving your game, it would be very good for you to keep playing and doing better with the years
if you have the time to work, enjoy your life, and then play poker (and enjoy it), then do it

it seems you wont go broke, so the only question you have to do is if you enjoy playing poker

boro said:

The sample is still small, but I attached a pic of my hands from October 09 on, which surely is only 5NL and the VPIP came way down

Click to expand...

-Steal WAYYY more. This is going to be the bulk of your profit. Seriously. Open upwards of %50 of hands on the button (mess with pokerstove if you're unsure what hands that makes up). I'll even open %100 (yes, EVERY hand) if the blinds are tight.

Opening up in late position will raise your PFR and shrink the gap between it and your vpip (the gap should be relatively small; right now it's huge).

-Stop defending your BB vs steals so often. You should stick to your monsters, pocket pairs, and strong hands like AJs, AQ, KQ. Drop the JT and 89s, they're just not profitable out of position.

-Tighten up vs people's preflop raises in general preflop. Think about what range they're opening, and only continue with hands that are clearly ahead of that range. ie if you think someone will open AJ+/pairs in early position, don't call his raise with AJ or worse.

ChuckTs said:

-Steal WAYYY more. This is going to be the bulk of your profit. Seriously. Open upwards of %50 of hands on the button (mess with pokerstove if you're unsure what hands that makes up). I'll even open %100 (yes, EVERY hand) if the blinds are tight.

Opening up in late position will raise your PFR and shrink the gap between it and your vpip (the gap should be relatively small; right now it's huge).

-Stop defending your BB vs steals so often. You should stick to your monsters, pocket pairs, and strong hands like AJs, AQ, KQ. Drop the JT and 89s, they're just not profitable out of position.

-Tighten up vs people's preflop raises in general preflop. Think about what range they're opening, and only continue with hands that are clearly ahead of that range. ie if you think someone will open AJ+/pairs in early position, don't call his raise with AJ or worse.

Click to expand...

those advices are useful to me too, sometimes i just cant fold hands like AJ with small raises and then an AK catch me, maybe i have to tighten up with some reads, sometimes i do good reads but bad moves