I have Done Extensive Research and Guess What? (Cash Vs Tournament)

R

Rational Madman

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CASH GAMES ARE STILL WORSE THAN TOURNAMENTS FOR REGULAR PROFIT!


Let me put this to you people yet again so you truly can grasp that I am not trying to insult tournament players, I am trying to WARN YOU OF THE TRUTH!

You are having a limited amount of chance-based hands, a constantly-increasing minimum bet and a series of actions that you will never be able to tell if they are a lucky pocket ace/king suddenly being handed to a loose player, a complete bluff because they know you are tight and fold or a semi-bluff because they don't want to risk you out-drawing them... Or just value betting their semi-good hand in the same type of situation.

You cannot wait for situations where it's clear due to several factors that you are either being bluffed or have coolered the other player(s). You are forced to engage when you really should be folding based on the cards you're getting. It's unfair to you if you get unlucky and unfair to the others in the tournament if you have a hot run. It is literally luck who gets first or third and even more luck who survives all-in clashes from the mid to the late game where stacks get built.

In fact the real irony of tournaments is that the players who learn to maximize their profit, as was recently taught to me not that it surprised me, are the players who cash out less often because they go somewhat kamikaze in the mid-game in order to have a huge stack by the end that means once they make it to the late-game they get first and second far more often than players who play to cash out and don't take a few dumb risks in the mid game to have a huge stack by the end.

You cannot ever understand why tournaments are designed for less smart players until you play smart and fail again and again at them. I don't for a second pretend that I just sat at cash games and grinded naturally, I still improve my game and learn to bluff and call bluffs or rather tighten up and NOT engage in bluffing or anti-bluffing based on clues every day. I am still a flawed player and always have tiny clues I don't pick up on or do pick up on and misinterpret based on wrong assumptions. I improve every time I play whether I win or lose, I use that as a means of scrutiny on my playstyle. What I have deduced is that your playstyle has far less consistent effect on tournaments than on cash games. Tournaments profit you in bursts so you may as well play them pretty LAG since playing TAG in no way at all benefits you in the long run as you never can dominate the late game with your tight style since you are consistently short-stacked by the end relative to the looser players who will have double or even six times your stack size by the late-game which can convert into 9 extra BBs more than you they can spend, quite often.

You can't abuse loose players properly in tournaments because you can't comeback from a significant loss like you can in cash games with a donkey who is going to stick around for you to win big from even if you lose big to them a couple times.
 
A

AviCKter

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There he goes again

Okay, please provide the research.
 
R

Rational Madman

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Okay, please provide the research.
I don't pay for the full version of HM2 yet and I don't care to share the graphs. I am telling you that no matter how smart you are, for the same number of tables, time put in and disciplined poker played you always will profit more from cash games than tournaments over the long run.
 
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Rational Madman

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Okay, please provide the research.
To begin with, notice something:

The minimum bet increases but in no way is your luck going to increase... So the amount you have to risk increases but in no way at all is the chance of this risk benefiting you increasing. In cash games you are only ever going to need to increase bets as often as the number of hands where a good hand can have arrived (in other words to cover the loss via big blinds and ante)
 
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Its just an opinion, not a research

HM2 is just a database manager, not a research. What research did you do that I haven't heard of, or where did you learn it? I want to know the source of this conception.

I'm just curious.
 
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R

Rational Madman

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HM2 is just a database manager, not a research. What research did you do that I haven't heard of, or where did you learn it? I want to know the source of this conception.

I'm just curious.
Playing poker, analysing my games and the effect playstyle or discipline had on rate of profit.
 
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So, that's just your experience. Its still not research.

research: noun
the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions.
 
LeonardBuda

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So your research is subjective?
 
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Rational Madman

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So, that's just your experience. Its still not research.

research: noun
the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions.
The profit is objective.
 
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The profit is objective.

That's true. But how does it translate into:


You cannot ever understand why tournaments are designed for less smart players until you play smart and fail again and again at them.

The way you're pitting Cash game vs Tournament games, is like saying "Smart people work at Commercial Banks, and only fools work at investment banks or hedge funds".
You're comparing two different forms, with very different approach to it. Comparing, Coke to Pepsi is one thing, but comparing chocolates to chocolate cakes, is another. Yes, both are made out of chocolates (or cocoa), but are they same?

Do you get my point?
 
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Rational Madman

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That's true. But how does it translate into:




The way you're pitting Cash game vs Tournament games, is like saying "Smart people work at Commercial Banks, and only fools work at investment banks or hedge funds".
You're comparing two different forms, with very different approach to it. Comparing, Coke to Pepsi is one thing, but comparing chocolates to chocolate cakes, is another. Yes, both are made out of chocolates (or cocoa), but are they same?

Do you get my point?
You can be smart and intentionally losing money for a thrill I suppose.

Nowhere in this thread did I say smart people vs fools though, so this is an incorrect analogy for my current stance taken here.
 
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CASH GAMES ARE STILL WORSE THAN TOURNAMENTS FOR REGULAR PROFIT!

NEFFEX - One of a Kind ? [Copyright Free] - YouTube

Let me put this to you people yet again so you truly can grasp that I am not trying to insult tournament players, I am trying to WARN YOU OF THE TRUTH!

You are having a limited amount of chance-based hands, a constantly-increasing minimum bet and a series of actions that you will never be able to tell if they are a lucky pocket ace/king suddenly being handed to a loose player, a complete bluff because they know you are tight and fold or a semi-bluff because they don't want to risk you out-drawing them... Or just value betting their semi-good hand in the same type of situation.

You cannot wait for situations where it's clear due to several factors that you are either being bluffed or have coolered the other player(s). You are forced to engage when you really should be folding based on the cards you're getting. It's unfair to you if you get unlucky and unfair to the others in the tournament if you have a hot run. It is literally luck who gets first or third and even more luck who survives all-in clashes from the mid to the late game where stacks get built.

In fact the real irony of tournaments is that the players who learn to maximize their profit, as was recently taught to me not that it surprised me, are the players who cash out less often because they go somewhat kamikaze in the mid-game in order to have a huge stack by the end that means once they make it to the late-game they get first and second far more often than players who play to cash out and don't take a few dumb risks in the mid game to have a huge stack by the end.

You cannot ever understand why tournaments are designed for less smart players until you play smart and fail again and again at them. I don't for a second pretend that I just sat at cash games and grinded naturally, I still improve my game and learn to bluff and call bluffs or rather tighten up and NOT engage in bluffing or anti-bluffing based on clues every day. I am still a flawed player and always have tiny clues I don't pick up on or do pick up on and misinterpret based on wrong assumptions. I improve every time I play whether I win or lose, I use that as a means of scrutiny on my playstyle. What I have deduced is that your playstyle has far less consistent effect on tournaments than on cash games. Tournaments profit you in bursts so you may as well play them pretty LAG since playing TAG in no way at all benefits you in the long run as you never can dominate the late game with your tight style since you are consistently short-stacked by the end relative to the looser players who will have double or even six times your stack size by the late-game which can convert into 9 extra BBs more than you they can spend, quite often.

You can't abuse loose players properly in tournaments because you can't comeback from a significant loss like you can in cash games with a donkey who is going to stick around for you to win big from even if you lose big to them a couple times.

There you go.

And this is not the first time you're doing this, you keep re-posting something or other along the same line. See, many people have already made futile attempts to make you see the point, but you still refuse to learn or understand.
 
chicopaw

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Look's to me .i have read this scenery before
why not go to a heads up Bar , shoot off ur thoughts an opinions, and see who 's the Last Standing!!
Or Better Yet, which person Won ,?? ur thoughts & responses to there thoughts or YOUR's Response
just think u wouldn't be walking out of the place
 
R

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Look's to me .i have read this scenery before
why not go to a heads up Bar , shoot off ur thoughts an opinions, and see who 's the Last Standing!!
Or Better Yet, which person Won ,?? ur thoughts & responses to there thoughts or YOUR's Response
just think u wouldn't be walking out of the place
caveman beat up the guy talking against their way of playing poker

caveman therefore smarter
herp derp
 
kidkvno1

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Playing poker, analysing my games and the effect playstyle or discipline had on rate of profit.
Nope, your playing, just shows you're better at MTTs vs Ring games.
I know, of some CC'ers who crush ring games.
I'm better at SNG games!
Each game, cannot be played the same way, you need to look at starting hands, in low stake ring games vs MTTs hands and the hands played in SNGs..
Hand range is everything, in each game!
 
R

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Nope, your playing, just shows you're better at MTTs vs Ring games.
I know, of some CC'ers who crush ring games.
I'm better at SNG games!
Each game, cannot be played the same way, you need to look at starting hands, in low stake ring games vs MTTs hands and the hands played in SNGs..
Hand range is everything, in each game!
No.. I'm better at ring games.
 
P

ph_il

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Heh. I'm one of those MTT kamikaze players.
 
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I'm confused.
Are you saying that tournaments are easier to make money from?

The way I see it is like this:
If you are looking to play poker for a living like it is a job, play ring games.
If you want to get rich, play tournaments.

Making a living playing poker and getting rich from poker are two different things...
 
kidkvno1

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No.. I'm better at ring games.
You'll make more of a profit, if that's true!!
You're better at MTT's, that's what your stats say.
Once you, start losing at MTT's, your stats will take a hit

You cannot ever understand why tournaments are designed for less smart players until you play smart and fail again and again at them.
Your own post!

You need more, than one year of stats! Or the 30 to 60 day trial period!!

Edit: Info from sharkscope!!!
https://www.sharkscope.com/#Player-Statistics//networks/PokerStars/players/SaneMadman
 
darthdimsky

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You confused a lot of people when you declared that "CASH GAMES ARE STILL WORSE THAN TOURNAMENTS FOR REGULAR PROFIT!"

You'll need to correct it his avoid throwing people off.
 
OzExorcist

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Playing poker, analysing my games and the effect playstyle or discipline had on rate of profit.

But you don't even play real money cash games... and even if you did, your own personal sample is a spit in a bucket floating in the ocean of all the hands that have ever been played in both forms of the game. Even if you had a million hand sample it still wouldn't "prove" anything.

Seriously, you're just trolling at this point. Maybe you realise it, maybe you don't - and I'm not sure which is sadder.

So here's a positive suggestion: instead of making this same post and getting in this same argument over and over again, why don't you go work on your own game? Get some more hands in, of whatever format of the game turns you on. It'll be a better use of your time and everyone else's.
 
Zorba

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Objectively, you cannot outsmart a tournament because it pushes you into luck based scenarios in order to remain in the lead.

You fail here also as in tournaments you do not need to remain in the lead, most tournaments are not won by the person that was leading the tournament the longest.

I have lost count as to how many times I have seen the final table short stack win the tourny, and they did it without any luck based scenarios, they used good judgement.

:top:
 
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Forbesy604

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Still interesting to hear peoples opinions on this
 
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