Is "I have to call" a call?

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msufan

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Live $1/$2 game... I was talking through a hand at the river after an opponent had taken a strange line. Obv, in hindsight, I shouldn't have done this, but I was muttering to myself, "I know I'm beat, but I have a full house, and it's just $30 into $100... how can I fold here?? I have to call this..."

...and then the other guy, upon hearing me say "I have to call this" flips over his cards, shows me a bigger full house (as expected), and I say, "I fold."

The floor ruled that I had called.

It was just $30, but I want to learn from it: Was my statement a call?
 
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Big_Rudy

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Binding verbal declaration IMO. At the casino in which I play you'd be held to the call as well.
 
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hawtshawt420

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Well what if he phrased it a little different. like "How can I not call?" Do they just listen for the word "call" or "fold"? "I can't fold this hand" is that a call too? I usually just play friendly house games where there'd be clarification before any showing and usually it's by onlookers who have folded so there is little cut-throat technicalities. that's what this seems like. technically its a call but kinda dbaggy? and that may lose your invite but obviously casinos cant ban you for hurting the feelings of another player
 
darkassassin89

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He was a smart player, he heard you mention the word " call " and showed right away, I would have as well and would have complained a ton if you said other wise :p i have seen such big fights in casino's over this.

Lesson here, let the chips do the talking. :)
 
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fishinthesea

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Seems kind of debatable imo, baudib1 response seems most legit.
 
FeltLikeIt

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Saying i have to call this out loud without a but ending that phrase would deem it a verbal binding comminenment.... Lame but True! One time I was kidding with dealer and said IM ALL IN THE MUCK, and he made me push my chips in becuase I said it slowly LOL, I had queen 10 off and noone called thank God, but wow that was close!
 
FeltLikeIt

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I also Said once, LOL, I raise....d puppies from birth, they made me raise despite me actually wanting to fold. Nobody called again LOL... be careful at table man the dealer is really all we have to keep the game fair and professional.
 
darkassassin89

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Yea they can be real pricks if you dont tip often :D
 
WVHillbilly

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Don't worry OP you weren't folding a boat for a 1/3 pot bet anyway.
 
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ph0n3_j4ck

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This seems debatable. But, to be honest I really don't think that it should be ruled a call. Totally depends on the casino and the person you're up against, imo. Because I know that im generous, i wouldve let it go ahaha.
 
OzExorcist

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He was a smart player, he heard you mention the word " call " and showed right away, I would have as well and would have complained a ton if you said other wise :p i have seen such big fights in casino's over this.

Sorry but no - doing this deliberately is stupid because if the floor rules against you you've given away the contents of your hand for no gain. You could even be penalised depending on the house rules for exposing your cards before showdown. Plus nobody likes an angle shooter. So just don't do it, confirm that you've got a legit showdown before you turn your cards over.

Very much up to the floor / dealer as to whether this is ruled a call BTW - I think it's pretty much a "had to be there" decision. If OP is 100% accurate as to what was said I'd probably lean towards it being a call, but it's by no means a slam dunk.

WV has it BTW, there's no way you were folding :p
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Clearly a call, try being less douchey in the future (I guess knowing you shouldn't have done it is a start :p)

He was a smart player, he heard you mention the word " call " and showed right away, I would have as well and would have complained a ton if you said other wise :p i have seen such big fights in casino's over this.

Lesson here, let the chips do the talking. :)

what
 
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LarryT503

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Sorry, but that sounds like a call to me! "Friendly" games have varying degrees of rule enforcement, but at worst you spent $30.00 to learn a valuable lesson. Let it go, and be careful of your words in the future.
 
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msufan

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Thanks for the comments, everyone. Like several of you noted, I don't really think I could've folded a full house for $30 anyway. I was just curious what kinds of verbal declarations would be binding in a situation like this.
 
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bedulis

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You might have folded, if you had looked out the window and saw the pigs flying by. But there are not a lot of window seats anywhere I've been.

I've never seen a dealers decision challenged, but I have seen a dealer call the boss over before making a decision.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Thanks for the comments, everyone. Like several of you noted, I don't really think I could've folded a full house for $30 anyway. I was just curious what kinds of verbal declarations would be binding in a situation like this.
"A verbal statement denotes your action and is binding. If in turn you verbally declare a fold, check, bet, call, or raise, you are forced to take that action."
The rule has room for interpretation and as such it is doubtful you would get it overturned by further review. You need to ask the floor managers (plural) at your place how they would interpret it AND whether or not another might interpret it differently. It's all well and great for us to kcik it around here but if you are asking on behalf of your bankroll than ask those who can effect it.
I gotta agree about brilliant move by the other guy flipping over. Angle shoot? yeah, but so terrible I'm going to hold it against him. I would have been pissed at myself for having those words come out of my mouth.
 
FastOne

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Well, you were going to call anyway, so you didn't actually lost those 30$... now, I believe what you did/say must be considered as calling, otherwise, others would start saying stuff like that in hopes the other guy flips over his cards (tricking him in doing so) and then calling only when holding a better hand, IMO.
 
skltlf

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mohegan sun and foxwoods would have claimed that a call.
 
OzExorcist

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I gotta agree about brilliant move by the other guy flipping over. Angle shoot? yeah, but so terrible I'm going to hold it against him. I would have been pissed at myself for having those words come out of my mouth.

Can you please explain how it was brilliant? Because I can only see downside to it.

OP has already said what he's said. He can't un-say it, and it's what was said that determines whether he's forced to call or not.

Whether the villain has turned his cards up or not has absolutely zero influence on that decision. All flipping his cards up does is allow OP to make a correct decision if the floor rules that he doesn't have to call - if it's ruled that he doesn't have to call, in many cases he probably still will. But if he's already seen he has a losing hand, he's going to fold every time.

In some card rooms it may also open villain up to a penalty for exposing his cards during a hand.

I suspect villain turned his hand up in this case not as some "brilliant" angle shoot, but because he genuinely believed (with good cause, it seems) that OP had called and the hand was over. I can understand that. But suggesting that it should be done deliberately in situations where there might be some ambiguity, on the expectation that it's somehow good for the person exposing their hand I just can't understand...
 
JusSumguy

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Sorry but no - doing this deliberately is stupid because if the floor rules against you you've given away the contents of your hand for no gain. You could even be penalised depending on the house rules for exposing your cards before showdown. Plus nobody likes an angle shooter. So just don't do it, confirm that you've got a legit showdown before you turn your cards over.

Yep

I was waiting for you to come along and save this thread Oz.


:icon_salu
 
MediaBLITZ

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Our different view on this seems to be totally about our presupposition about how this would be handled by the floor.

I am convinced there was a call and I am convinced that if the floor is called the fact the villain has turned his cards up has 99% influence on that decision.

I base that on seeing over and over in the rules, if you 'blah blah blah' "causing another player to act behind you" then (and the "then" never turns out well for the person who induced the action).

I could be wrong but that's the basis of my opinion.

Totally understand what you're saying and if you're right about zero influence on a ruling then I would agree.

Can you please explain how it was brilliant? Because I can only see downside to it.

OP has already said what he's said. He can't un-say it, and it's what was said that determines whether he's forced to call or not.

Whether the villain has turned his cards up or not has absolutely zero influence on that decision. All flipping his cards up does is allow OP to make a correct decision if the floor rules that he doesn't have to call - if it's ruled that he doesn't have to call, in many cases he probably still will. But if he's already seen he has a losing hand, he's going to fold every time.

In some card rooms it may also open villain up to a penalty for exposing his cards during a hand.

I suspect villain turned his hand up in this case not as some "brilliant" angle shoot, but because he genuinely believed (with good cause, it seems) that OP had called and the hand was over. I can understand that. But suggesting that it should be done deliberately in situations where there might be some ambiguity, on the expectation that it's somehow good for the person exposing their hand I just can't understand...
 
Tom1559

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Very interesting set of circumstances. I can see the arguement both ways. I guess it has to come down to the dealer to decide in a situation like this. Lesson I guess is to say as little as possible.
 
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