Was I better when I was worse?

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luckyhearts

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Let's go back in time...the year is 2008.
I have won an ofc. I have won a $4k guar rebuy without rebuying or adding on( I did not know how). Several other good monies.
When neteller shut me down, I had $5k. I had over a hundred dollars at 8 sites or more.
I did not know what range was, much less range polarization. I completed every uncontested small blind. I was a bit fuzzy on implied odds. I could NOT lay down a hand.
Fast forward 5 years...
I do not have $100 at ANY site.
I have not cashed out in a year.
I do not recall my last big win.

My bankroll has been going on a slow but steady downward spiral.....I am not talking variance..just slowly going down...down...down....

Sooo.....am I worse now that I am better????

I would like input if you have had a similar experience-is the field, nature of the game-changing? Getting a bit discouraged.....forum games and freerolls are the only thing keeping me from *GASP* depositing.
 
Poker Orifice

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I did not know what range was, much less range polarization. I completed every uncontested small blind. I was a bit fuzzy on implied odds. I could NOT lay down a hand.
I don't get it? Fast forward 5yrs. & I still don't see any difference :confused:
 
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detourglr

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sometimes I think being worse in a way is better. Becuase better players have a harder time figuring you out. When you become better I think it is easier for them to figure you out... Think about when you have a novice at the table. It is harder to put them on a range of hands.
 
bullishwwd

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Maybe you are focusing too much on "results" vice making better "decisions" ... an excellent poker player on CC (dmorris68) recently espoused some excellent poker wisdom that I will share here for your benefit:

"Your goal in poker should not be to make money, your goal in poker should be to make correct decisions. If you make correct decisions, the money will follow over the long term. However due to variance, correct decisions do not always yield positive results. Since poker is a long-view game, it doesn't matter whether any given hand won or lost, all that matters is you made the correct decisions in playing the hand.

Focusing on results of any hand or even group of hands (regardless of EV) = results oriented = BAD. Unless you made a mistake in the hand, in which case you need to focus on the mistake and fixing it.

Focusing on correct decisions (i.e. +EV) = ignoring results = GOOD."

I am always attempting to get better myself and I often "forget" this poker wisdom. I think this is valid advise for both poker and 'life in general'.

Wally
 
vinylspiros

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Maybe you are focusing too much on "results" vice making better "decisions" ... an excellent poker player on CC (dmorris68) recently espoused some excellent poker wisdom that I will share here for your benefit:

"Your goal in poker should not be to make money, your goal in poker should be to make correct decisions. If you make correct decisions, the money will follow over the long term. However due to variance, correct decisions do not always yield positive results. Since poker is a long-view game, it doesn't matter whether any given hand won or lost, all that matters is you made the correct decisions in playing the hand.

Focusing on results of any hand or even group of hands (regardless of EV) = results oriented = BAD. Unless you made a mistake in the hand, in which case you need to focus on the mistake and fixing it.

Focusing on correct decisions (i.e. +EV) = ignoring results = GOOD."

I am always attempting to get better myself and I often "forget" this poker wisdom. I think this is valid advise for both poker and 'life in general'.

Wally
i agree very much with this post and it sure is a great piece of advice. but can you explain to me what the correct decisions are based on? is it % of winning a hand depending on outs? is it the mathematically correct decision or is it the hud%'s of opponents in combination with experience and creativity.

Is there "the correct decision" in absolute terms or can there be more than one? i ask this since we say outcome is irrelevant. Meaning that many decisions are wrong or right always in relation to, the opponents hands,a variable that "we", are not aware of.
 
vinylspiros

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in my previous post i just question whether there can be right decisions for every hand because some hands are too complicated to even know what the right decision is.
 
EvertonGirl

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I have definitely started to sort out my mistakes out and I don't seem to make as many now :)

I never play poker to win, for me it is the fun factor and if I do make money then that's a bonus
 
vinylspiros

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Let's go back in time...the year is 2008.
I have won an ofc. I have won a $4k guar rebuy without rebuying or adding on( I did not know how). Several other good monies.
When neteller shut me down, I had $5k. I had over a hundred dollars at 8 sites or more.
I did not know what range was, much less range polarization. I completed every uncontested small blind. I was a bit fuzzy on implied odds. I could NOT lay down a hand.
Fast forward 5 years...
I do not have $100 at ANY site.
I have not cashed out in a year.
I do not recall my last big win.

My bankroll has been going on a slow but steady downward spiral.....I am not talking variance..just slowly going down...down...down....

Sooo.....am I worse now that I am better????

I would like input if you have had a similar experience-is the field, nature of the game-changing? Getting a bit discouraged.....forum games and freerolls are the only thing keeping me from *GASP* depositing.
I have been going through exactly the same thing and i also made an identical thread to this one a few months back. When i started playing just a bit more serious in 2010 i made some pretty descent scores of 700$ 900$ 1200$, which for me esp back then was something HUGE. i remember final tabling 2 or 3 MTT's in 2 weeks. I thought i was the new talk of the town.(its funny really cause i really did). Took a break for 2 years and came back and started playing it hardcore.endless hours. Bigger deposits, higher limits, forums recently,videos,strategy, you name it man.

At the end of the day, i realise that im not doing anything half as close to what i did back then and im pretty sure im a wayyyyyyy better player. So at the end of the day i think it all comes down to what someone had replied to my thread when i asked the same question your asking. He said: "maybe its not that your playing worse now,maybe it is because your expectations were less back then".
 
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luckyhearts

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thank you all for your input, some excellent points

I think some of it is probably me, but the poker atmosphere has changed also-there are no 4 dollar 4k guar games now, that i can play anyhow.

The USA thing has made it really hard, good public freerolls are all but gone, ev seems to be disappearing also.
sigh, I am such a whiner :p
 
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postflopper

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or maybe the overall standard of play is exponentially higher now than 3-5 years ago...
 
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baudib1

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1. Level of play is better. Bad poker players either stop playing because they run out of money, or they get better. The poker economy needs a real influx of dead money, soon, or else this trend will continue until Phil Ivey has all the money.

2. Some combination of you were running hot and/or are running bad now likely playing a small part. If you're not putting in huge volume, "running bad" can last way longer than anyone cares to admit until they're in it.

3. You haven't improved as much as you think, or you are misapplying things you have learned, or have developed some other fundamental leak in your game.
 
pfb8888

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why are most of the players who do well in the wsop younger ?

because they haven't been ground down by bad beats and do unpredictable stuff occasionally.

if you play like everyone else ...you will suffer less losses but the highs may be lower or less frequent as well
 
bullishwwd

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i agree very much with this post and it sure is a great piece of advice. but can you explain to me what the correct decisions are based on? is it % of winning a hand depending on outs? is it the mathematically correct decision or is it the hud%'s of opponents in combination with experience and creativity.

Is there "the correct decision" in absolute terms or can there be more than one? i ask this since we say outcome is irrelevant. Meaning that many decisions are wrong or right always in relation to, the opponents hands,a variable that "we", are not aware of.
I think there is a "correct decision" in every case (poker and life), but this does not always insure success.

In life, we should try our best to "do the right thing for the right reason" (CTR=choose the right) ... this also applies in poker as well. But, again this will never insure success all the time. This is where variance, bad beats and bad luck happens.

I like to play one table SnGs primarily out of convenience, the less time it takes and you have a more limited group to 'read tells'. Playing SnGs, I have found that I tend to win more often and be ITM more often at the $10-$20 buy-in level versus the $1-$5 level...not sure exactly why, but I do. And, between a Normal SnG, Turbo SnG, Triple-up, and Double-ups, I tend to be more ITM with the Turbo SnGs and Triple-ups...again, not sure why, but it happens. So, guess what I play more of? Any thoughts?
 
aa88wildbill

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You say, I could not laid down a hand. It makes me think maybe you're laying down too many hands. Sometimes the "hero call" has the right thing to do.
 
LuckyBundy13

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You have to look at your game. So you binked a tournament by being a luckbox, who hasn't? What have you done since that win to improve your game? I can tell you what the other 80% of the field has been doing....getting better.
 
aero87

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why are most of the players who do well in the wsop younger ?

because they haven't been ground down by bad beats and do unpredictable stuff occasionally.

if you play like everyone else ...you will suffer less losses but the highs may be lower or less frequent as well

Younger players generally do better because they since they are younger, they have the stamina to play all day for days at a time. Also they generally have less responsibilities. Its hard to travel around the country/world with a wife and kids, as well as thinking about supporting your family when you face that critical all in moment.
 
dirtyoldog

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thank you all for your input, some excellent points

I think some of it is probably me, but the poker atmosphere has changed also-there are no 4 dollar 4k guar games now, that i can play anyhow.

The USA thing has made it really hard, good public freerolls are all but gone, ev seems to be disappearing also.
sigh, I am such a whiner :p
acr and black chip run a $3500 guarantee on sunday night at 8 and a $2500 on wed night at 8 for $5.50. i like those ones except its a 2hour buy in so you get a lot of donkey shovers but once they build the pot up and donk out it you get to the money pretty quik as long as you survive that
 
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smidjet

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no matter how good you are there is luck and lots of it in poker ,more so on line because you cannot see the players.you have no idea what their frame of mind is.winning a mtt requires luck for your hands to stand up and also on occasion to suckout .you may or may not be any better than you were 5 years ago because maybe by trying to eliminate the luck your not giving yourself enough chances to get lucky,hands standing up or sucking out, maybe you just need to loosen back up a bit
 
NeverEnough

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Maybe you are focusing too much on "results" vice making better "decisions" ... an excellent poker player on CC (dmorris68) recently espoused some excellent poker wisdom that I will share here for your benefit:

"Your goal in poker should not be to make money, your goal in poker should be to make correct decisions. If you make correct decisions, the money will follow over the long term. However due to variance, correct decisions do not always yield positive results. Since poker is a long-view game, it doesn't matter whether any given hand won or lost, all that matters is you made the correct decisions in playing the hand.

Focusing on results of any hand or even group of hands (regardless of EV) = results oriented = BAD. Unless you made a mistake in the hand, in which case you need to focus on the mistake and fixing it.

Focusing on correct decisions (i.e. +EV) = ignoring results = GOOD."

I am always attempting to get better myself and I often "forget" this poker wisdom. I think this is valid advise for both poker and 'life in general'.

Wally
Good post & I get what he is saying, but c'mon, of course winning or losing & making money counts & you have to think of them too.
 
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I know I am better now than I was in 2005 winning 11k in a Sunday big tourney on pacific poker. But the competition is much better now. And looking back on it I was very lucky. Stupid and lucky.
 
Dorugremon

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Let's go back in time...the year is 2008.
I have won an ofc. I have won a $4k guar rebuy without rebuying or adding on( I did not know how). Several other good monies.
When neteller shut me down, I had $5k. I had over a hundred dollars at 8 sites or more.
I did not know what range was, much less range polarization. I completed every uncontested small blind. I was a bit fuzzy on implied odds. I could NOT lay down a hand.
Fast forward 5 years...
I do not have $100 at ANY site.
I have not cashed out in a year.
I do not recall my last big win.

My bankroll has been going on a slow but steady downward spiral.....I am not talking variance..just slowly going down...down...down....

Sooo.....am I worse now that I am better????

I would like input if you have had a similar experience-is the field, nature of the game-changing? Getting a bit discouraged.....forum games and freerolls are the only thing keeping me from *GASP* depositing.

Been there; done that. Heard it before. Yeah, it's frustrating watching a fish luckbox it while you're running card dead. Once you know what you're doing, you're not going to be completing in the SB with 53-off, flopping bottom two, spiking a full on the river to stack the nut flush your opponent made on the turn. Fish rely on miracle flops, and sometimes they get them. One after another, all night long, and stack multiple players who're better than them for a hellacious score. Twenty years later, their Big Night is remembered as though it occurred last night. In the mean time, they've played like the fish they are, and lost every bit of it back plus a whole lot more. Maybe you're making the same mistake? Recalling all the big wins that resulted from playing fundamentally bad poker, and forgetting the losses?

Secondly, as a player who knows what you're doing, you have a distinct disadvantage: your play makes sense. Fish are unpredictable, but that one advantage doesn't offset their many manifest weaknesses. You're not gonna luckbox with garbage when the garbage correctly sails into the muck pre. You're not gonna stack an opponent by hitting a one or two outter when you aren't making ill-advised calls. As a fundamentally sound player, you're not gonna make your winnings with huge wins, but rather a series of much smaller wins over the long haul.

Let the past bury the past, and forget about your fish days. Concentrate on playing well, and let the wins and losses take care of themselves.
 
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Been there; done that. Heard it before. Yeah, it's frustrating watching a fish luckbox it while you're running card dead. Once you know what you're doing, you're not going to be completing in the SB with 53-off, flopping bottom two, spiking a full on the river to stack the nut flush your opponent made on the turn. Fish rely on miracle flops, and sometimes they get them. One after another, all night long, and stack multiple players who're better than them for a hellacious score. Twenty years later, their Big Night is remembered as though it occurred last night. In the mean time, they've played like the fish they are, and lost every bit of it back plus a whole lot more. Maybe you're making the same mistake? Recalling all the big wins that resulted from playing fundamentally bad poker, and forgetting the losses?

Secondly, as a player who knows what you're doing, you have a distinct disadvantage: your play makes sense. Fish are unpredictable, but that one advantage doesn't offset their many manifest weaknesses. You're not gonna luckbox with garbage when the garbage correctly sails into the muck pre. You're not gonna stack an opponent by hitting a one or two outter when you aren't making ill-advised calls. As a fundamentally sound player, you're not gonna make your winnings with huge wins, but rather a series of much smaller wins over the long haul.

Let the past bury the past, and forget about your fish days. Concentrate on playing well, and let the wins and losses take care of themselves.

I know I'm new, but that was frickin' beautiful. Especially for number 29. Nicely done, sir.

And, luckyhearts: keep on keepin' on.
 
A2345Razz

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Let's go back in time...the year is 2008.
I have won an ofc. I have won a $4k guar rebuy without rebuying or adding on( I did not know how). Several other good monies.
When neteller shut me down, I had $5k. I had over a hundred dollars at 8 sites or more.
I did not know what range was, much less range polarization. I completed every uncontested small blind. I was a bit fuzzy on implied odds. I could NOT lay down a hand.
Fast forward 5 years...
I do not have $100 at ANY site.
I have not cashed out in a year.
I do not recall my last big win.

My bankroll has been going on a slow but steady downward spiral.....I am not talking variance..just slowly going down...down...down....

Sooo.....am I worse now that I am better????

I would like input if you have had a similar experience-is the field, nature of the game-changing? Getting a bit discouraged.....forum games and freerolls are the only thing keeping me from *GASP* depositing.

Yes, the fields for US facing sites are wayyy better. The ring games are basically reg infested, and there are people like me who can play but play low online bc I would never consider having more than X dollars of my own money online considering the climate/risk.

I have LITERALLY not 1/10th the money online now that I did preBF, and I am wayyy better at NLH.

A lot worse at stud games though...(I was a reg for awhile pre BF).
 
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bad players dont know when to fold and get lucky. good players dont want to get unlucky so they fold to much.
 
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