I am done with ring games!

i just can't take it anymore. beat after beat after beat. i can't seem to do anything right at all.

ya have to understand that i don't get to play online or live nearly as much as i'd like. i feel, however, that i have a petty decent STT and MTT game and i wanted to work on my cash games. my sample size is not big at by any means, a bit over 10k hands, and i've come to the conclusion that i just, 1, really suck at this game or 2, just really unlucky.

i think it's time for me to go back to tournaments and forget about the rings. i'm 99% sure this is the last cash hand i will ever play.

i got short stacked about 10 hands before this one from the same guy. i had pocket jacks, i raised 4xbb in utg+1 after he limped in. every one folded but him who called. the flop came up rags, turn rag. i'm all in on the turn. river was another rag. he called me with nonsense and took it to the showdown when he hit his first pair on the turn and second on the river. something like 6 2 offsuit. uhg. i let it go then this happened.

full tilt poker Game #5899053586: Table Hills Center - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:29:22 ET - 2008/04/03
Seat 1: Aesh ($3.05)
Seat 2: JCole200 ($2.50)
Seat 3: Brian Lalonde ($2.95)
Seat 4: cocobongo33 ($17.10)
Seat 5: KEVYC6184 ($12.15)
Seat 6: hollleyqb_05 ($0), is sitting out
Seat 7: OneWickedWahine ($0.55)
Seat 8: Tony T21 ($6.25)
Seat 9: BAMABUC ($4.25)
Aesh posts the small blind of $0.05
JCole200 posts the big blind of $0.10
5 seconds left to act
hollleyqb_05 stands up
KEVYC6184 is sitting out
Time has expired
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Brian Lalonde [Ks Ad]
KEVYC6184 has returned
Brian Lalonde raises to $0.40
cocobongo33 folds
OneWickedWahine folds
Tony T21 folds
BAMABUC folds
Aesh folds
JCole200 calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [Kh 9h Jh]
JCole200 checks
Brian Lalonde bets $0.80
JCole200 raises to $2.10, and is all in
Brian Lalonde calls $1.30
JCole200 shows [2h 2s]
Brian Lalonde shows [Ks Ad]
*** TURN *** [Kh 9h Jh] [Th]
GaryWW sits down
*** RIVER *** [Kh 9h Jh Th] [6c]
JCole200 shows a flush, King high
Brian Lalonde shows a pair of Kings
JCole200 wins the pot ($4.55) with a flush, King high
GaryWW adds $10
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5.05 | Rake $0.50
Board: [Kh 9h Jh Th 6c]
Seat 1: Aesh (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: JCole200 (big blind) showed [2h 2s] and won ($4.55) with a flush, King high
Seat 3: Brian Lalonde showed [Ks Ad] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 4: cocobongo33 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: KEVYC6184 is sitting out
Seat 6: hollleyqb_05 is sitting out
Seat 7: OneWickedWahine didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Tony T21 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: BAMABUC (button) didn't bet (folded)

i know it's not a lot of money, but that's not the point. it's the standard of play on this level that i just can't take anymore. i know that this is not the analysis section but if there is something that i did wrong with this hand, please feel free to let me know.

end rant. ahh, i feel a bit better now, thanks.

i dont think u made any mistakes in the hand, good preflop raise and c-bet, u had to call the all in, just got a bit unlucky

honestly, if u feel better playing sngs and mtts then go ahead and play them, no need in playing cash games if ur not enjoying urself.

good luck in whatever u do, hope it works out for you

You're going to quit poker after losing a $5 hand? Come on man, yeah it was a donk call but what do you expect - you are playing the $10nl game and trust me these types of moves are all over the place. It's a mine field and something that I experienced a lot of when playing $10nl. I moved up to $25nl, and actually saw a tremendous amount of success.

Feb:

Playing $10nl = - $22.65

Playing $25nl = + 37.75

Maybe move to a more "serious" game of NL? Take a breather too for a week, that might help.

Since it was a cash game, you know that you could reach into your pocket at anytime. You don't have to stick to your initial buy-in, wait to lose it, then re-load. You can beef up your stack to the table max buy-in at anytime. And you are also free to leave the game with whatever you have left of your buy-in at any time. Playing short-stacked at a cash game, especially a NL cash game, is a recipe for disaster.
I say this because I had a bad habit of doing this too at the casinos. After losing a big pot or a several small pots, continuing to play with short chips in front of me even though I had additional buy-in's in my wallet. Playing too long after taking a beat to try to recoup my losses. And playing too long after winning a big hand when the table is very loose and beats are being handed out every other hand.
Those hands were bad beats. And for some damn reason, they seem to come in bunches. But I'm sure you have heard that these are the kind of players we want to see at the tables. They will lose more than they win.
On your last hand with AKo, I think you would have been better served going all-in first rather than check-raising. Since he bet $0.80 on the flop, making the pot $1.65, then you came over the top for $2.10, it only cost him $1.30 more into a pot of $3.75 or a slightly less than 3:1 pot odds.
But I think the main thing that may have saved you here would have been to have a deeper stack, so that you could make a much larger re-raise to get him off his draw.
Better luck next time!

And don't give up on the cash games. But taking a break from them for a while never hurts.

momoney2 said:

On your last hand with AKo, I think you would have been better served going all-in first rather than check-raising. Since he bet $0.80 on the flop, making the pot $1.65, then you came over the top for $2.10, it only cost him $1.30 more into a pot of $3.75 or a slightly less than 3:1 pot odds.
But I think the main thing that may have saved you here would have been to have a deeper stack, so that you could make a much larger re-raise to get him off his draw.
Better luck next time!

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read the HH again. there was no check raise by me. i bet .80 on the flop.

and yeah i understand the whole reloading feature as you describe it.

icemonkey9 said:

Maybe move to a more "serious" game of NL?

Click to expand...

Moving up to a more "serious" game might not be as easy if these are the current limits Chiefer's BR allows him to play. Assuming he follows a BRM plan, of course.

Chiefer, tough break. Crazy push by the opponent and he got lucky to hit the flush. It just seems so ridiculous at times, but we've all been there. I experience a ton of beat of beats on the .01/.02 tables and the standard level of play at the limits is so disgusting sometimes. Take a break if you need, work on other games, whatever you need to do.

GL.

philthy said:

It just seems so ridiculous at times, but we've all been there. I experience a ton of beat of beats on the .01/.02 tables and the standard level of play at the limits is so disgusting sometimes.

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And this exactly how the good players make money because there are always two more cards in the next hand. I know it can get sick when you have many hands that you feel like you deserve to win, but don't. Just keep grinding and you'll notice you win most of these.

philthy said:

Moving up to a more "serious" game might not be as easy if these are the current limits Chiefer's BR allows him to play. Assuming he follows a BRM plan, of course.

Chiefer, tough break. Crazy push by the opponent and he got lucky to hit the flush. It just seems so ridiculous at times, but we've all been there. I experience a ton of beat of beats on the .01/.02 tables and the standard level of play at the limits is so disgusting sometimes. Take a break if you need, work on other games, whatever you need to do.

GL.

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thanks for the words of encouragement philth. you saved me a post by repying to icemonkey. after some thought, i may just move my funds to PS and start playing the .01/.02 for a bit. it's just that, it seems like this has been going on forever, the better part of a couple of months now. i feel like i've lost whatever edge i had and now i'm uber gunshy. perhaps a break will do me well.

The way I see it is since Im only playing for fun, I find that playing the micro-tables on pokerstars to be a great way to get my daily poker fix. That and the micro buy-in MTTs. By fun, I mean I play because I enjoy the game, but still take it very seriously. While I am trying to build BR and move up the limits, I know I wont be doing that any time soon playing penny stakes. But thats no problem since Im playing for enjoyment and not as source of reliable income. Play on the penny tables is a lot more loose with some crazy plays, but the swings arent as bad and a lot easier to manage. Depending on your reasons for playing, moving down to these limits may or may not be the right choice.

As for downswings and losing edge, Im right with you. My BR has dropped more than 60% in the past couple of weeks, which sucks so bad. My current downswing is in SNGs, where I think I average about 2 ITM finishes/10. The micro games at PokerStars allows me be able to play with very little BR risk, since I really need to build up my BR again.

chiefer77 said:

read the HH again. there was no check raise by me. i bet .80 on the flop.

and yeah i understand the whole reloading feature as you describe it.

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Whoops, I see that he did the check raise, not you. My bad.
Since your stack was so short though and making a pot-sized bet was going to commit you to the pot, then pushing in first would have still been the thing to do.

Also, as a few others noted, you may find more success playing the 1c/2c NLHE on PS.
The first time I tried to get my bankroll moving started last year from freeroll winnings on Full Tilt Poker, I ended up losing $40+ playing the $0.05/$0.10 NLHE tables over a couple weekends. My last hand from a year ago at their NLHE cash game tables still sticks in my mind. I was down to my last $5.00 buy-in. I was at an incredibly loose short-handed table, as a few players had dropped off. I raised to $1.00 (10x BB) from UTG with AA's, and got two callers. The flop came something like 863 rainbow. I just wanted to take the hand down there and at least win one decent pot after dumping $15 that day, so I pushed all-in for my last $4. Low and behold, the first caller insta-called with pocket 66's for a set on the flop. I just felt like I couldn't even buy a break. UGH!!! So I know your pain.

This year I took a tiny 40 cent cash on PS to the 2c/4c fixed limit tables and built that into $18 over a 2 month span. During this time I also cashed in a few more freerolls on PS for $12 more. I've started multi-tabling the 1c/2c NLHE tables this week and added $22+. I usually end up taking a bad beat or two, but now since I have a little more bankroll to re-buy, I can withstand these beats; and can win some solid hands and dish out a few beats of my own.

Sorry for hijacking your thread. I just wanted to let you know that you even after a tough ride at the cash games at FTP, you still may find success at the PS micro NLHE tables.

GL2U!

The .01/.02 NL tables on PS are going to have alot of bad players making bad plays like in the hands you mentioned above. Just play tight and get your money in when you have the best of it.

Don't expect too much Fold equity on the micros...many times you'll get called by someone who has absolutely nothing. You'll see lots of flush/straight draw chasers and people betting 2nd or 3rd pair like they hit a set.

You will definitely take some bad beats, but if you stick to tight play you will come out ahead and be able to move up to the .02/.05 table. The play there is a little better, but there are still lots of people making ridiculous plays. I tried the .05/.10 NL tables and for some reason I just couldn't seem to win there. Play doesn't seem much different so maybe I jsut had a few bad sessions. I've since moved up to the .10/.25 NL and am doing much better than I did on the .05/.10.

Good luck!

Toad said:

I tried the .05/.10 NL tables and for some reason I just couldn't seem to win there. Play doesn't seem much different so maybe I jsut had a few bad sessions.

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The big difference I've noticed (on poker stars anyway) between .02/.05 and .05/.10 is that there are a lot more short-buy-in nits on the .05/.10 tables. It's not uncommon to see people min-buying on 4-6 tables at a time, and only playing monsters. That cuts down on the action, and makes it a different game. At .02/.05 there seem to be more players willing to gamble and a lot more limping going on.

I think you are right, now that I think about it.

I make most of my money off of calling stations or poeple who are way to LAG. I mostly steer clear of the nits (especially the short stackers)...if anyhting I'll blind steal from them a little more often, but that doesn't account for much of my winnings. So a higher nit % would definitely affect my bottom line.

momoney2 said:

Since your stack was so short though and making a pot-sized bet was going to commit you to the pot, then pushing in first would have still been the thing to do.

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a lot of times, when i am short stacked, i'll ask myself if i am willing to play for all my chips with a particular hand such as this one. when i hit the K. i was more than ready to throw them all in the middle.

if i know that i am willing to do this before i see a flop, then i will use a stop and go method. basically, i will raise preflop rather than push, i will then bet the pot to try to get the other player off the hand, if i get raised, i will push. if i only get called i will push the turn immediatly. it works different in different situations but i'm sure you get the drift.

Just like to point something out that the luck factor in mtt's is greater than ring games. The hand you mention is not a bad beat, your not reading the board, three hearts on the flop plus there grouped together. So there's flush and straight draws out, someone could already hold 2 hearts your beat. Just fold and go on to next hand. Don't overvalue a pair with all those draws out there. I play NL200 and thats a hand I'm mucking if not on the flop definately the turn.

Kozmo said:

Just like to point something out that the luck factor in mtt's is greater than ring games. The hand you mention is not a bad beat, your not reading the board, three hearts on the flop plus there grouped together. So there's flush and straight draws out, someone could already hold 2 hearts your beat. Just fold and go on to next hand. Don't overvalue a pair with all those draws out there. I play NL200 and thats a hand I'm mucking if not on the flop definately the turn.

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chiefer77 was heads up in this hand, so he could feel somewhat comfortable that his only opponent would most likely not hit the flop perfectly, though it does happen. So he should feel pretty good about having TPTK. If there were 2 or more callers preflop, then yes, he could easily fold. But heads-up with a short stack. I would go all the way with it.
His opponent really had no business in there trying to push him off his made hand with the weakest possible flush draw, a 2h. His opponent got extremely lucky that chiefer77's Ks Ad was not Ks Ah.
I still view this as a bad beat for a heads up confrontation.

^^^^ this, pretty much to a T.

Ring games come with negative variance, but your max winnings per hour is virtually unbounded.

In comparison, SNGs are less risky for your bankroll, and MTTs are less risky but usually will end up without you cashing.