how you'd play against me based on these stats

So let's say I'm the villain. You're sitting down at $5 NL a table w/ me. You don't know anything about how I play specifically (no specific hands noted) except for my #'s on your Hud, but you've got plenty of hands on me. (Oh btw, you're NL full ring microstakes player now -- sorry! ) So what type of player do you think I am, and how would you play against someone like me?

I guess this really is just a questions about how I'm playing in general ... which really means it's a question about why f**k am I not able to crush the micros!?! Aaaarg! Despite how it may seem, I really do have a basic grasp of the game and have even done some reading; I've read a lot of forums threads, skimmed through Harrington on Cash, and about to go through it some slowly. But for whatever reason, I'm playing like an idiot and I'm bleeding $ to fish. Help!

Anyhow, here are my numbers in your imaginary Hud. Discuss.

VP$IP: 21
PRF: 12
3Bet preflop: 4.2
Att to Steal Blinds: 35
Folded SB to Steal: 68
Folded BB to Steal: 76

CBet flop: 74
Fold to flop CBet: 62
Check-raise flop: 6.7

Total Arg Factor: 5.0
Total Arg Frequency: 57
WTSD: 18

Hey

rowhousepd said:

Folded SB to Steal: 68
Folded BB to Steal: 76

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I would guess that you are playing too many hands from the small blind. Stop completing so much, because you are out of position. I'm not sure, but I think you could fold BB to steal 80%+ of the time at 5nl.

Your gap between VPIP and PFR is pretty big, and your VPIP is highish I think for FR (I don't play much FR, so grain of salt). I'd guess you're playing too many hands generally, definitely agree that you're prob playing too many hands from the blinds.

Thanks guys! Here's some positional info on me

VPIP in EP: 12
in MP: 18
in LP: 26
in SB: 40
in BB: 14


PFR from EP: 9
from MP: 13
from LP: 16
from SB: 11
from BB: 5

Basically it looks like I need to tighten up in general and esp in the blinds, and possibly raise more often too? I can tell you that I almost never open limp. Sometimes I do in EP w/ AA or KK hoping to get raised so I can back-raise or shove. Not sure which stat would reflect that (I don't believe there's an First-in Raise stat in PokerTracker), but when I'm first to act, I'm almost always raising 3-4bb.

I guess I usually 3Bet preflop (4.2%) only if I have premium hands; I'd say AA-QQ, AK, AQs, KQs is more or less my criteria depending on my position. And it's even a little tighter for 4Betting (which, btw, I do only 3.6%).

About the blinds, here are a couple of other stats.
Raise vs Steal Att: 6.6
Fold Steal to Blind Reraise: 36

You say you rarely open limp - but in EP you're limping twice as often as raising. EP is UTG and UTG+1 in FR, I believe - which means you're limping alot (overlimping in UTG+1 possibly). Lousy position postflop. Your range is pretty wide as well - 18 is huge relatively speaking.

Completing way too many hands in SB, worst position on the table postflop.

For an eyeopener, check your winrate by position.

Play less in the SB. Attempt to steal more from the btn. Be aware of Position.

Dont EVER open limp. Its just bad. 22 UTG? Raise. 22 on the btn with 1 limper? Raise 4x BB then go from there.



... Dont run HORRIBLY below EV. (oh wait ... thats me. Nevermind.)

slycbnew said:

You say you rarely open limp - but in EP you're limping twice as often as raising. EP is UTG and UTG+1 in FR, I believe - which means you're limping alot (overlimping in UTG+1 possibly).
....
For an eyeopener, check your winrate by position.

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Wait, I'm confused (or maybe you are ). In EP, VPIP is 12 and PFR is 9. That's only a 3% difference. And probably what's happening is that I'm just calling too much if UTG open limps -- which of course happens a lot in the micros. But your point is taken.

So I ran two little reports in PokerTracker looking at my winrate as you suggested. Over 5k hands, both reports UTG and UTG+1....

1) VPIP and holding AA-99, AKs-AJs, AKo-AQo, KQs. Results: BB/100 = +1.
2) VPIP and NOT holding those same hands. Results: BB/100 = (...get ready....) -190!!! (That's right, negative 190 BB/100.)

This is ridiculous. If I did absolutely nothing differently except only playing premium hands in EP and my post-flop game exactly the same, I go from hemorrhaging $ to being in the black. Needless to say, I don't play anywhere near as many non-premium hands in EP, but still.... Wow. Thought you'd get a kick out of that. (Ha, now imagine if I did work on my post flop game -- which I am, of course. )

Completing way too many hands in SB, worst position on the table postflop.

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Probably right. Very often there are no raises preflop and several limpers, so when it comes around to me in the SB I'm probably thinking, "Sure I'll see the flop for half price. Since all five of you guys are basically begging me to come along, I'll pay the discounted rate and maybe flop a 2P or trips then I can shove." Of course if I don't hit something I'll drop it, but I think that's why I'm VPIP'ing. Hmm. Quick fix on that one.

You're right, I was confused. Not uncommon fwiw lol.

Yeah, the 99+, AJs+, AQo+,KQs (5-6%ish) is more standard than 12% for EP I believe - it's right around where most of the beginner hand charts start for EP.

I had a 20k hand sample a year ago where i figured out I would've won more money if I'd simply folded every small blind (because I was playing from SB poorly, open completing rather than raising, no stealing against BB, no 3bets against LP opens, etc.)... So yeah, I am grinning about the winrate for the non-6% hands from EP...

Also take a look at winrate by the 7 non-blinds positions - you should see a very marginal winrate UTG and UTG+1 (over significant sample size) growing to a much larger winrate on BTN.

slycbnew said:

Also take a look at winrate by the 7 non-blinds positions - you should see a very marginal winrate UTG and UTG+1 (over significant sample size) growing to a much larger winrate on BTN.

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You mean filter out the non-premium hands for the other other 7 seats and run the same kind of winrate report? I was thinking of doing the same for MP & LP, but I'd change the hand criteria for each position. Problem is I'm trying not to follow hand charts too much; I know they're ok to get started, but I've read a lot of posts where people say to throw you're charts away because you have to play according to people's actions in any particular hand and the villains' style at any particular table. Point is, I'm resisting ABC chart-based preflop strategy ... but then again, that's apparently not working.

Any suggestions for starting hands (or other posts that have charts) at the micros? Maybe that's exactly what I need.

Don't filter for premium vs non-premium, just look at the winrates by position. You should see something like you're losing money in the blinds, you're b/e or marginal UTG and UTG+1, you're a little better in MP, and most of your money comes from CO and BTN. An oddity of mine is that I win more in CO than on BTN, which is not normal, and I am only a marginal loser in the SB (I'm very aggressive in my sb play).

This should imply how you should be thinking about starting hand selection. You want to be playing a lot in position, and not much oop. If you're losing money in a particular position, check aggression and hand selection to try to fine tune your ranges. Obviously ranges vary by your opponents at the table - but FR, your EP ranges shouldn't vary a ton, since so many players are left to act.

Next try and filter for pf aggression by position and check your winrates.

rowhousepd said:

And probably what's happening is that I'm just calling too much if UTG open limps -- which of course happens a lot in the micros. But your point is taken.

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If some fish limps UTG (which only a fish will do), you can't really be calling. That's pretty bad. The idea is to isolate the fish, you do this by raising. Obviously only with playable hands.

Sort tables out by most players per flop, join all the waiting lists/tables with the highest, and the lower the level you play at, the more high VPIP loose weak fish you'll bump into. Get these players on your right. If they're not a place or two or three to your right, leave. Mark these fish by right-clicking their names, going into player notes, and then picking a colour so that when you look at tables in the future you'll see their names.

Now just get on the left of as many fish as you can on as many tables as you like, and every time you get a playable hand and some fish limps, raise to isolate, and take their money.

I'm sure you've probably heard a lot of this before, but this really is the art to beating the micros, and if you're limping along with UTG limpers, then all that I just said might be something that needed re-emphasizing, so I thought I'd say it.

Also, don't expect to just be able to take their money every single hand you do this. Some of these high-VPIP idiots will be able to fold flops to a pre-flop raiser, check their Fold To C-Bet. Against idiots that can actually fold flops, widen your playable hand range to include SCs, low-mid PPs, AXs and suited broadways. Against idiots that just can't fold 3rd pair or some long shot draw, tighten your range to just the premiums.

Some of this may seem very basic but if you're not crushing 5NL FR then I'm sure some of it may have been helpful.

Edit: (Sorry, just thought of somethin else to add...) This goes hand in hand with your VPIP-PFR gap, and your losses on your non-premium hands - by raising to isolate, even only with SCs/low PPs/AXs, you can represent decent hands on dry high-card flops. You'll be able to make a lot of money by c-betting air, but you have to have taken the initiative pre-flop by raising. That way you command respect. Particularly if a flop comes A22 or KK5 or even Q83r.

i have a question not sure if this is were i should post it but if u flop top pair with top kicker how should u play it?ive tried to push people out before by betting at least the pot but i get called constantlly only to get suckout on turn or river.anybody got any advice

Welcome to CC HensonD!

This should go in a separate thread, OP is asking for something unrelated to your question.

The answer to your question (and you'll find it a common answer to a lot of questions about poker) is "it depends". In this case, alot depends on who you're playing against. If you're getting called when you have the best hand, that's good - if you think they'll call bigger bets when they have the worst of it, make those bigger bets. This doesn't guarantee in any way you won't get sucked out on, but since you will not get sucked out on as often as you'll hold, you should make more money this way.

Here is what you need to know about completing from the SB.

Why would you pay 1/2 price for something you shouldn't want for free?

madtom1337 said:

Now just get on the left of as many fish as you can on as many tables as you like, and every time you get a playable hand and some fish limps, raise to isolate, and take their money.

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I'm assuming you're most talking about loose-passive fish, no? I mean, if you've got someone with a high VPIP you can isolate if you're behind him ... but you wouldn't want a weak-tight nit on your right, correct? You'd probably want him to your left so you can get him to fold to your bluffs & semi-bluffs, and when he doesn't you'll know when you're beat.

And what about maniacs? I'm guessing you'd probably want them on your right as well so you can call his idiotic raises when you have him crushed. Likewise, where would you want a TAG? Ok, so you wouldn't want any, but if you had a table full of fish w/ one TAG shark, where would you want him ideally?

(I realize this is probably material for another thread, but since we''re talking about it already, I figured I'd follow up.)