How would you handle a " cheater" in a home game ?

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Rumme1

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So heres the dilema.

You relocated to a new state and were fortunate enough to find some local home games { remember, you are the out of towner and not part of the local clique" } . These home games do not have a " rake"

You are ahead in these home games you have been invited to, but there is one local player who has been playing in these games for years and is good friends with all the local poker players, BUT, that player is a sociopath that will take extra chips out of the pot, several times a night, when he is making change during a bet . You see he is stealing money from the pot { usually a $5 chip extra when he makes change for lets say, a $25 chip] , but no one else at the table sees it . It is very likely this sociopath has been doing this to his friends for years, and they never knew about it. Keep in mind he doesnt do it every pot , just a few times a night and all the other players are oblivious to it .

What would you do ?

1. Ignore it , because you are a winner in the game anyways , and it is a no chop game and if you mention it at the table, it is your word against his word and he is a local player and you know its possible that none of his friends at the table will believe that their friend is cheating { this guy is very good at what he does..he palms the chip quickly}

2. Mention it a the table that this guy is taking to much change out of the pot , and risk a big argument at the table , about something you cannot prove , but you know is true { or that you may possibly be banned from the game for speaking up about it}

3. Just quit the game entirely even though you are beating the game for a average of a a few hundred a week { this particular game is on fri-sat-sun}

4. Get the sociopath on a 1 on 1 situation, when no one else is around and let him know you see what he is doing, and try to make a deal with him that you wont say a word about it, as long as he doesnt steal money out of a pot, that you are involved in .

Keep in mind, that sociopaths are very clever and often very charming
{ even though that charm is nothing but a act } . Also remember that this sociopath has been playing with these other poker players for 10 years or more, and probably been cheating them the whole time , and yet his friends are oblivious to it, and if a out of towner trys to inform others about this guys cheating, those poker players probably wont believe it , because they think it is impossible that they have played with this sociopath all these years, and never seen what he does. In other words, his friends may not want to admit to themselves that they have been so naive all these years and overlooked that this guy is a cheat.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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I would get there early one day and mention it to the other players assuming the cheat is not there yet.

If he always does it, they will have the chance to see for themselves.
 
lorres1991

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We had a player in a game I used to play who would steal chips from people when they went to the bathroom. He was pretty slick about it, but apparently had been banned from some casinos for it (which I didn't know beforehand). Once I had some inkling about it, I counted my chips before I went to the bathroom, and when the count was off I called him out and someone mentioned that he had been banned from casinos for the same thing. He was kicked out of the game permanently and his stack was distributed to all of the regulars in the game to reimburse us for what he had probably stolen from each of us over the months we had played with him.

The sick part was he was a pretty good player, and could easily win without stealing. He was just ****ed in the head and loved to do it.
 
detroitjunkie

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first off I would never play in a game, home or otherwise, if there was not a permanent dealer who did not play.

I would mention it to the person who runs the game, not in front of the other players

if not resolved then I would never go back
 
wilpinsi

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if we are playing in our home, then we are among friends, this friend is cheating, I first would say that this should not be done among friends,
Secondly I ask to depart from my house.
 
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freestocks

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Quite a dilemma. I have no idea what to do. I am very curios what happens.
 
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Rumme1

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Its important to understand that I am a outsider in the area..moved here a few years ago and this cheater has been buddies with these players for many years...yet they dont see his ability to steal chips out of the pot when making change.
 
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first off I would never play in a game, home or otherwise, if there was not a permanent dealer who did not play.

I would mention it to the person who runs the game, not in front of the other players

if not resolved then I would never go back

But im beating the game..and it is a no chop game with alot of money to be won. For example, one guy won $3000 last week in one night there.

Im pissed that this one guy has the quickness to take a extra $5 chip out of the pot , every now and then, when he makes change...but I realize that if I call him out on it, its his word vs mine..and hes a local, born and raised here...Im not . Im trying to decide if I should just live with it, since he only does it a few times per night , and look at it as though im still coming out ahead since I win money there, and they dont chop $5 on the pots like most games.

Im worried that if I speak out about it, they would actually ban me from the game...which would then mean I cant go to a game that I am beating.
 
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RR25c

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If he has been playing with these friends for so many years, they likely know about the chip stealing and just let it slide. If its bothersome maybe just quit the game. In all honesty, if he's an actual sociopath and has been friends with these people for so long the they are already manipulated.
 
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Rumme1

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If he has been playing with these friends for so many years, they likely know about the chip stealing and just let it slide. If its bothersome maybe just quit the game. In all honesty, if he's an actual sociopath and has been friends with these people for so long the they are already manipulated.

I honestly do not think that his buddies, see him cheating. He is very fast when he does it, and most of the other players do not pay attention to anything, except their own hand .

Now I would guess, in the course of a 8 hour poker session, he may only be stealing $30 -$50 at most...usually a $5 chip...once per hour. I figure if it were a chop game, then the chop would be taking at least $60 per hour out of the game. Im trying to justify accepting his periodic stealing because I win at the game, and there isnt a chop. Last week I won $400...the week before I won $300. If I thought there was a good chance that his buddies at the table would believe me that he is cheating, and tell him to stop it, I would mention it...but I do not think that would be the case. Besides, people dont like to think or be told that they have been getting cheated by another player...cause it makes them look naive.
 
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if we are playing in our home, then we are among friends, this friend is cheating, I first would say that this should not be done among friends,
Secondly I ask to depart from my house.

Its not at my home. Its at a vacant building . He is a sociopath, and they dont really have true friends . He is a thief that will always be a thief ..its part of the thrill for the sociopath mind .
 
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RR25c

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There's always a moment that comes when he can easily be exposed. It would be better for someone else to see it with their own eyes. Other than that if you can think of a way to have him caught , If you're winning I'd say keep goin, as to justifying the stealing the best way yo look at it is they are losing $5 here and there and you are up $300 and $400.
 
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detroitjunkie

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My 2 cents - dont go back, if it bothers you. You can play and just consider it a rake, but I am not sure the situation is as sound as you may think.

I am not sure where you live, what country - city, whatever, but I would be VERY cautious playing poker with people I didnt know in a vacant building. I have been around many home games my past, Ive run them, worked them, and visited them. I have seen tournament money stolen, know people at games where thieves were killed, etc..
I run 2 legal poker rooms in Michigan now and there is some shadyness there too.

I dont know if you are even old enough to play legally where ever you live, but if you are and have a place I suggest switching to it and stay away. You just never know, and yes you may be winning now but that can change in an instant, by natural causes or dangerous ones.
I am NOT a fan of illegal poker when; 1. there is no one in charge, 2. there is no permanent dealer who is NOT playing, 3. there is no one running the game, 4. there is no one running the game 5. there is no one running the game (get the idea)

OH, and if this all pans out to be accurate, and not a group scam (which it may be), you DO NOT want to be there when someone else less passive than you about this issue find outs about it
 
arizoney

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You never know who's involved in the scam. Why try to beat the game if there is a cheater? I would put myself above it I would be polite and leave and wouldnt go back. If he is palming chips who is marking cards? For one person to get away with this all the time there has to be somebody trying to run as a blocker (distraction) for his move. Dont be a mark leave dont go back. But if you do and he is really doing this dont get mad when he does it to you. For you should know better!
 
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You never know who's involved in the scam. Why try to beat the game if there is a cheater? I would put myself above it I would be polite and leave and wouldnt go back. If he is palming chips who is marking cards? For one person to get away with this all the time there has to be somebody trying to run as a blocker (distraction) for his move. Dont be a mark leave dont go back. But if you do and he is really doing this dont get mad when he does it to you. For you should know better!

I am very observant at a poker table. In 15 minutes, I know who the suckers are...who the tight players are..who the bluffers are ,etc.

From what I see in this game, no one else is in on this chip stealing. This sociopath does it all on his own, and everyone else is oblivious. You must remember, he is around 40 years old , and many of the other players are 70+ years old...so they are not alert and they often overlook their own hands. It is a perfect scenario for a sociopath like him , to steal a few extra chips out of the pot each night and im sure hes been doing it for years to this same bunch of players .

Do you really think my best option is to completely quit this no rake game, where I am a regular winner ? No one thinks it would be best to get this sociopath one on one { like in my car} and tell him I see what he is doing, and as long as he doesnt do it to the pot, when im in it { I only play 5% or less of hands im dealt| ..I wont say a word about it ? Keep in mind, im a 48 year old weightlifter, so im not physically scared of this guy in anyway..he weighs about 300 lbs and is obese and out of shape.
 
detroitjunkie

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well it sounds like you dont want to hear whats best for this situation. if you are that good of a player i see no reason to not play somewhere else, unless all you can beat are geriatrics and fat lazy thieves there is no reason to play here. and under no circumstances should you assume no one else is in on it - but you will do what you want and refuse every bit of sound advice you get so why did you even ask the question?
 
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Rumme1

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well it sounds like you dont want to hear whats best for this situation. if you are that good of a player i see no reason to not play somewhere else, unless all you can beat are geriatrics and fat lazy thieves there is no reason to play here. and under no circumstances should you assume no one else is in on it - but you will do what you want and refuse every bit of sound advice you get so why did you even ask the question?

No need to be c0cky. I asked people what would they do/ their opinions. I never claimed that I was gonna do exactly what other people said they would do.

Furthermore, you act as though it is easy to find a local poker game, that has big money on the table , with no rake . In my area, most games have a normal 5% chop on $100 pot . In a rake game of this type , the house will usually take in $50-$ 100 per hour , so in a 8 hour session , that is $400 - $800 being taken off the table and out of the game entirely. This sociopath is probably stealing about $40 per night maximum out of the pots and that money stays on the table in his stack and in play. Yes, I understand I am justifying his unsavory actions in a way , even though I am annoyed at what he is doing , I have to look at all the factors involved. This no rake game goes on 3 days per week and in my area they do not have any other no rake games like this with players this bad that are willing to lose so much money in the course of 1 session. Two weeks ago, a vietnamese guy lost $2900 in this game and as I mentioned earlier, I am a regular winner in this game.

As you see , there are many factors to consider with this situation . My options seem limited to :

1. Entirely quit this game which is 3 days per week , which means I would be quiting a game I am a consistent winner in, and am unable to replace it with another no rake game like it 3 days per week.

2. Wait for the sociopath to do it again and bring it up to everyone at the table when he does it , and risk those other players not believing me / banning me for criticizing their lifelong poker pal { and usually one of the worst things you can do to a sociopath, is expose him while they are in your acquantance }

3. Discuss this with the sociopath , in a one on one manner { either before or after the game starts , in person , or on the phone } and tell him I see his thievery , and I wont say a word about it, as long as he doesnt do it when Im involved in a pot .
 
detroitjunkie

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Being a floor manager, and a dealer, I do not believe in games where no one is in control, properly running a CLEAN poker game is what puts food on my table, furthermore it is what I believe in. This situation of yours is a product of that which is wrong with poker - shadiness, angle-shooters, cheats, thieves. etc... Most people here do not play these types of games nor would they condone them. At least most of the home games I have been privy to have some sort of control to them, at least a permanent dealer and a owner of the property who lets people in.

My advice, and that of most of the regulars here will be to leave the game, and go play somewhere else. Win despite the rake, and live a carefree poker life. If you can beat this game you can beat others, and the rake is only going to cost you a few bucks per hand that you play in (most legal card rooms will rake $5-6 max), this is well worth the price considering everything will be on the up-and-up. This is the reason for a rake, otherwise poker would just be a bunch of cheaters stealing from each other.

BUT if you insist on playing here I would not bring it up with said player in attendance, you are asking for trouble, unless someone wants to claim they are in charge and have them deal with it, otherwise this guy will deny it and if it is a group scam you may be in for some trouble...which I have to assume it is or everyone at the table either doesn't care or are complete blind idiots, in which your point will be glossed over anyways when you do bring it up, and you may get bounced for accusations (which would also happen if a group scam).

Option 1 is best, option 2 may be dangerous to you or others however one rule constant in ALL rule books is that its a players responsibility to point out ALL wrong doings to management, since no management you MUST tell the others, maybe when other player not around. Option 3 sux ass and should not be done, less you be considered a thief as well, this type of maneuver will lose you the respect of the entire poker community, and forever garnish you a crook.
 
cally

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Don't be an outsider at a poker game, especially if you are good and can crush tables.... You will not win full amounts and probably get yourself listed as a target.... Not worth it anyways
 
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I would tell the host and other players about it. Also if you can catch him and take a picture or video of him doing it you can show the other players. Hopefully you can get this guy out of your games.
 
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I'd probably try and mention it in a joking way to make everyone aware of the error, but keep it as lighthearted as possible. Something like:

"Woah, I think you got a little too much change for that $25 chip. Someone cut off this guy's alcohol, he can't count when he's buzzed!"

It would probably be best to say this while he still has the change in his hand and before he puts into his own stack, because that would be hard to prove. So watch him grab 5 $5 chips, then when he grabs the 6th one, say it. You want to make sure everyone at the table sees that the player had indeed grabbed one too many, but you don't want to come off as you're blatantly accusing him of cheating.

Then if it continues, I might even make a joke about how frequently the guy is getting change during the night. Again, in a jokingly way.

"Hey, that's the 5 time you've gotten change for a $25 chip tonight. We should just give you stacks of $5 chips and make it easier for you!"

Again, you're not blatantly accusing him of anything, but maybe this might get the other players to notice that a) this player does get change a lot and b) he was already caught getting an extra chip, so maybe they'll pay more attention.

Finally, if you don't want to say anything outright at the table, maybe talk to the host about making it a rule that when you get change, you have to have someone at the table agree that the correct change is made before you stack the chips.
 
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Rumme1

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Played again in this game on saturday. the sociopath stole another 5 dollar chip, and I decided to speak up { screw it } ....as soon as I said something, the sociopath looked at me like he did not know what I was talking about...then guess what happened ? One of the other players backed me up { and im the outsider} and said " yes he did...and hes been doing it for years !

The sociopath threw the money back in the pot and acted like it was a honest mistake [ which it wasnt} ....he did not cheat the rest of the night , nor did he come back and play on Sunday night { last night}

I spoke to the old man that runs the game, and another player, whom told me that they had a private discussion about this sociopath doing this stuff about 2 weeks ago , but they never said anything be cause they were intimidated by him, or could not prove the chip stealing { the guy does it very quickly then mixes it in with his own chip stack quickly } . Three of us at the table agreed to always keep a close eye on the sociopath from here on out and speak up when we see him doing this stuff.

So basically, the other players were not part of this, and they were suspicious that the sociopath was doing this but they did not have the guts to say something. It took me { a outsider} to have the guts to speak up, so others would now speak up.

Amazing how timid and weak people are, even if they think they are being cheated.
 
detroitjunkie

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good. I still suggest hiring a dealer for tips. I hope someone there knows all the rules that are supposed to be followed....and it would forever stop this type of behavior and any subtle collusion that may be happening.

Good job. Glad you choose this path.
 
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good. I still suggest hiring a dealer for tips. I hope someone there knows all the rules that are supposed to be followed....and it would forever stop this type of behavior and any subtle collusion that may be happening.

Good job. Glad you choose this path.

I dont run this game....they arent interested in having a dealer...they had that and were unhappy with her and the house rake, so they started this no chop game . The woman dealer they used to have, didnt even control the game properly. Between her tips and the house rake, they were taking at least $600 off the table and out of the game, 4 nights per week. Now that money stays in the game and in the poker players pockets. Thats $2400 per week , that isnt taking away from the poker players. You may not appreciate that, but we do. Also, the woman dealer didnt play poker, so her tip money was never put back in the game, and the guy that owned the building we played in and got the chop each, night, didnt play either...now all that money is put in the game. Huge benefit to us players.
 
detroitjunkie

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I dont run this game....they arent interested in having a dealer...they had that and were unhappy with her and the house rake, so they started this no chop game . The woman dealer they used to have, didnt even control the game properly. Between her tips and the house rake, they were taking at least $600 off the table and out of the game, 4 nights per week. Now that money stays in the game and in the poker players pockets. Thats $2400 per week , that isnt taking away from the poker players. You may not appreciate that, but we do. Also, the woman dealer didnt play poker, so her tip money was never put back in the game, and the guy that owned the building we played in and got the chop each, night, didnt play either...now all that money is put in the game. Huge benefit to us players.

Well never said rake the game, and obviously hire a good dealer - if they even exist where ever you are from. A good dealer for a night should be tipped about $100-$200 bucks depending on how long it runs ($100 for 5-6 hours is fine). And this will greatly speed up your game too, you will see many more hands per hour with a proper dealer - more action for the players. Plus all rules will be followed to the letter, and no cheating or collusion would ever occur. To me its worth the $100 a night divided amongst the table (10 players, 10 bux each) - would you pay 10 bux to never have that cheat steal 15 a night? Of course you would. But thats me, I am a strict rules guy, I have to be being a floor. NEVER hire a bad dealer if its just because she is a hot chic, the fad will diminish rather quickly.

If you are in USA give me a state and I will let you know if I have contacts for any dealers nearby, I know good dealers all across the country. Only place outside USA I know dealers is ireland.
 
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