How Do You Handle This Sort of Table

Earlier today I was playing in THE most frustrating sit n go I have EVER experienced. it was a live $25 buy in game where a portion of the winnings go to charity. 9 people at the table.

It was something I had never ever in my life seen before. Almost the entire table, I'd say 6 of the other 8 people, were SUPER loose before the flop and SUPER TIGHT after the flop.

I mean no matter what anyone raised in any position, there were atleast 4 people in every hand until there were only 5 people left. it didn't matter who raised, how much they raise there were always atleast 4 ppl in the pot, often 5, and every so often 6.

I made it to the final 4 playing 4 hands by playing super tight before the flop, and just playing my position after the flop as they folded pretty often.( i folded AJ and AQ off suite 4 times in early/middle position, and glad I did since 2 of the times 3 ppl ended up going all in, and the other 2 times I wouldn't have hit anything anyway.)

I just really don't know how I should have handled this table though or if it's even possible. It seemed to me that whoever was going to win preflop was going to win no matter what.

Hoosiers71 said:

Earlier today I was playing in THE most frustrating sit n go I have EVER experienced. it was a live $25 buy in game where a portion of the winnings go to charity. 9 people at the table.

It was something I had never ever in my life seen before. Almost the entire table, I'd say 6 of the other 8 people, were SUPER loose before the flop and SUPER TIGHT after the flop.

I mean no matter what anyone raised in any position, there were atleast 4 people in every hand until there were only 5 people left. it didn't matter who raised, how much they raise there were always atleast 4 ppl in the pot, often 5, and every so often 6.

I made it to the final 4 playing 4 hands by playing super tight before the flop, and just playing my position after the flop as they folded pretty often.( i folded AJ and AQ off suite 4 times in early/middle position, and glad I did since 2 of the times 3 ppl ended up going all in, and the other 2 times I wouldn't have hit anything anyway.)

I just really don't know how I should have handled this table though or if it's even possible. It seemed to me that whoever was going to win preflop was going to win no matter what.

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Simple, tighten up preflop and value bet your good hands that are always going to get paid off. If they are going AIPF with junk, then push your chips to the middle when you have a good hand preflop. My guess if that this is what you should have done with your AJ and AQ(by the way, don't ever think of any play as being the right thing based on what happened after you folded, like you did in the bolded above by the board coming out after your fold not connecting to your hand...)

On the other hand, if they are tightening up like crazy postflop, then you could call a tad bit looser with some(not a lot) marginal hands and then be aggressive postflop if they are folding easily.

Really, this table would make it be quite a bit easier to move up a couple brackets in the prize pool if they are going all in preflop with garbage against one another...I would love to be at this table.

I like this type of table as it is often ripe with opportunity to build a stack , not without a bit of danger though. I agree with AbsolutHamm on the style of play needed to exploit the table , summed it up perfectly. I think what I enjoy when I find myself in this situation is that its alot like a turbo without me be being forced to put much in unless I want to , best of both worlds.

Play tight and let them knock each other out. Then dominate the push/fold game. Easy game.

Just keep in mind. It's not one game. It's the long run.

Seems like a dream table to me.

I'd probably loosen up preflop, limp more, and start pounding them postflop.

Yeah be loose preflop and then do some value / float bets and they might fold if they didn't connect that much. You couldn't do this always and not bluff all the time because they would realize.

yea I gotcha. I really wasn't thinking of it in the right way, as one LONG game. Instead I was just viewing it as THAT game, though it was a tournament, not a cash game.

I just got spooked when I saw huge hands preflop getting busted time and time again by 3 7, 9 3, 5 9, ect.

And the problem was that they were taking so long to eliminate one another. One guy would have AK and get busted by 3 7, buty 3 7 would have the lower stack. Then 3 hands later the guy who just won with 3 7 would lose all his money right back to the guy he just won it from, and this happened time and time again. Basically just shuffling money back and forth. Comebacks were just so easy since the pots often got pretty huge preflop simply because of how many people were in the hand.

Neoblast said:

Yeah be loose preflop and then do some value / float bets and they might fold if they didn't connect that much. You couldn't do this always and not bluff all the time because they would realize.

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You're going to float players who are super tight postflop? (the table sounds like its full of huge fish noobs.. who are calling any & all raises pre.. 'we wants ta see da flops!' kinda fish & I'm assuming they're fit/fold postflop (OP says, 'tight postflop'). So if they're only betting postflop when they got.. why would I ever 'float' here?
This makes no sense to me.

Limp more pre-flop, especially from position. Then take it down post-flop when it's checked to you. $$$

Start tight, play only premium hands, wait till 2 o 3 fall, then open ur range, and use ur table image.

Amroth said:

Start tight, play only premium hands, wait till 2 o 3 fall, then open ur range, and use ur table image.

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I would strongly advise against that. I was in no way saying to wait only for premiums. In a small SnG type live game, you will end up just blinding down if you do this, as there is no way you will see enough hands to make waiting for only a premium profitable.

as others said

do the opposite of the table and exploit the loose pre with premium hands and loose post by stealing or drawing on the cheap

and let the dust settle ... nothing wrong with hanging on the sidelines while a few maniacs take each other out

i'd rather be 6 handed with about my starting stack and say, 20X the BB vs. a couple 3, 4, 5K stacks

than 10 handed with everyone having around the same amount of chips and again 20X the BB

This: "Limp more pre-flop, especially from position. Then take it down post-flop when it's checked to you." Is NOT correct.

This IS correct: "Start tight, play only premium hands, wait till 2 o 3 fall, then open ur range, and use ur table image." to a point...Play very aggressive with premium hands (they are going to call anyway).

You are playing in a $25 live Sit N Go....I doubt many people (read that as nearly ANYONE) have a clue to begin with--hence the everyone calling with anything. If you go limping with nothing but crap from everywhere, you may catch a flop...but more likely you are just throwing chips away.

Wait 2 blind levels, when everyone is down to no chips. The size of the blinds will then scare them and you have a fair number of chips to scare them. That's when you can loosen up starting ranges.

And DO NOT play sophisticated poker. A) there is no reason to, and B) not a single other player at the table understands the game and you cannot fool a fool.

Vollycat said:

This: "Limp more pre-flop, especially from position. Then take it down post-flop when it's checked to you." Is NOT correct.

This IS correct: "Start tight, play only premium hands, wait till 2 o 3 fall, then open ur range, and use ur table image." to a point...Play very aggressive with premium hands (they are going to call anyway).

You are playing in a $25 live Sit N Go....I doubt many people (read that as nearly ANYONE) have a clue to begin with--hence the everyone calling with anything. If you go limping with nothing but crap from everywhere, you may catch a flop...but more likely you are just throwing chips away.

Wait 2 blind levels, when everyone is down to no chips. The size of the blinds will then scare them and you have a fair number of chips to scare them. That's when you can loosen up starting ranges.

And DO NOT play sophisticated poker. A) there is no reason to, and B) not a single other player at the table understands the game and you cannot fool a fool.

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Lol no? The point is that they give up a ton post-flop. If you play really tight and try to get max value out of your hands... You can't, because they fold so much.

cjatud2012 said:

Lol no? The point is that they give up a ton post-flop. If you play really tight and try to get max value out of your hands... You can't, because they fold so much.

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You got told son!:marchmell

Amroth said:

Start tight, play only premium hands, wait till 2 o 3 fall, then open ur range, and use ur table image.

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No such thing as table image when you're playing unobservant droolers.

Do what CJ and WiZ said above.

cjatud2012 said:

Lol no? The point is that they give up a ton post-flop. If you play really tight and try to get max value out of your hands... You can't, because they fold so much.

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Disagree, sorry. I understand that you may not get paid as much post, but by the time you commit so many chips limping into random pots, you won't have enough left to do anything. If they are willing to call with garbage preflop, punish them for it--and you can't punish them with 68o from early position.

You cannot play level 2 or 3 poker post flop with people who cannot see past their own cards--ESPECIALLY live. They've waited to long to finally get the pretty KTo and they ride it to the end. Plus if you do whiff with your AKs and they continue to call, the cr off the flop, shut down. It's about the long run of the game.

This is a dream table when you have chips. When you piss away half your stack trying to call and limp, you'll be useless when the blinds get big.

Vollycat said:

Disagree, sorry. I understand that you may not get paid as much post, but by the time you commit so many chips limping into random pots, you won't have enough left to do anything. If they are willing to call with garbage preflop, punish them for it--and you can't punish them with 68o from early position.

You cannot play level 2 or 3 poker post flop with people who cannot see past their own cards--ESPECIALLY live. They've waited to long to finally get the pretty KTo and they ride it to the end. Plus if you do whiff with your AKs and they continue to call, the cr off the flop, shut down. It's about the long run of the game.

This is a dream table when you have chips. When you piss away half your stack trying to call and limp, you'll be useless when the blinds get big.

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Well of course you can't punish them with 86o from early position - I don't think anyone is advocating that. But you aren't punishing them by playing only premiums either. If they were calling with bottom pair all the way to the river, then I'd advocate that strategy, but according to OP they're tight post-flop and fold a lot after the flop, so playing tight pre-flop wouldn't be an effective strategy. The best strategy is to see flops for cheap in position, and take it down when people check to you. It's a low risk, pretty high reward situation, imo.

This is the dream table for me. Just limp in or call with anything but rags, then bet postflop, probably 1/2pot to pot. If they call or raise, they probably have something and you can fold when you can or ride it out. This is a good situation to take down pots(regardless of size) without having to go to a showdown, and maybe you value bet a few good ones so you build some cred.

The situation in the OP sounds like gamblers and not players, and the fact that it was for charity backs it up. No need to push AI at all, because they will fold postflop to any bet if they don't have a great hand. Let them go all in and catch them when they don't notice the straightened flop and they think their pair is good. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeasy

bettsjc said:

This is the dream table for me. Just limp in or call with anything but rags, then bet postflop, probably 1/2pot to pot. If they call or raise, they probably have something and you can fold when you can or ride it out. This is a good situation to take down pots(regardless of size) without having to go to a showdown, and maybe you value bet a few good ones so you build some cred.

The situation in the OP sounds like gamblers and not players, and the fact that it was for charity backs it up. No need to push AI at all, because they will fold postflop to any bet if they don't have a great hand. Let them go all in and catch them when they don't notice the straightened flop and they think their pair is good. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeasy

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Yea, that would only work for maybe a couple rounds...terrible. Think about it, you're limping in along with 6 others in the pot, there goes 1BB, then you're betting 1/2 pot to pot, so 3.5-7BB and then folding to aggression, so you're willing to lose 4.5-8BB's that often, eh? Don't know about the types of MTT type situations you play in, but many times when it gets down to 8 people, the blinds are relatively high compared to stacks, so losing 8BBs in a hand can be pretty significant.

absoluthamm said:

Yea, that would only work for maybe a couple rounds...terrible. Think about it, you're limping in along with 6 others in the pot, there goes 1BB, then you're betting 1/2 pot to pot, so 3.5-7BB and then folding to aggression, so you're willing to lose 4.5-8BB's that often, eh? Don't know about the types of MTT type situations you play in, but many times when it gets down to 8 people, the blinds are relatively high compared to stacks, so losing 8BBs in a hand can be pretty significant.

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The tournament mentioned is a SNG, not a MTT...assuming this is not a turbo, yes, I'm willing to use this strategy to success

I'll try to explain myself because better because I'm with absoluthamm on this one.

The tourney (sng, whatever) is Live. So let's be generous...a starting stack of 3,000 chips. This would be considered a deep stack tourney, and if we are talking a $25 buy in live....1,500 is probably closer to real. Blinds will most likely start at 25/50, if you are lucky--it could be 50/100, but let's use 25/50. Live game will get you 30-40 hands per hour MAX, and playing with people that don't know what they are doing will greatly slow the game. Blinds typically double every 15 minutes, but I'll give you 20 minutes (many cases it's 12 min blinds. If you get 1 orbit per blind you're doing pretty good.). This is all assumption the OP didn't discuss, but playing live it's really just assumed I thought.

So say you limp (that's the game plan right?) 4 times in the first round, that's 200 chips, and for sake of math, that included your blinds in those limps (however many of you are indicating a MUCH looser style so....). On the button you limp with K9s (within the range of limping style and in position) along with 5 others and you catch top pair on a dry board. Pot is 250. Checked to you and you lead out with 200. You get one caller. Pot 850. You turn your 9 and have 2 pair, checked to you so you fire off 500, he calls. Pot 1850. River is a blank and you get nervous because why is this guy calling??? He flips over a set of 3's. He never bet?!?! Nope, because he doesn't know what he's doing and after all, there was a K on the board and you were firing at the pot.

So now you're down to 2100 chips...a 1/3 of your stack. 2 more rounds of limping at (4X per round) at blinds of 50/100 and 100/200 and you catch nothing and now sit with 900 chips and blinds are 200/400 and you are faced with all-in on any play...and you 'played' 1 hand.

Limping into a Live tourney with bad players will suck you dry. If you would have played 1 premium hand and it didn't hit, you'd be left with close to 2K chips still.

Sorry for long explanation, but that's why I think freq limping into a live tourney especially is poor strategy. If you are playing with guys who do not know the game you don't have to play much past ABC, and if you get too fancy, it will almost surely cost you. Your chips are your ammunition, save them until you need it.

Very well put VC

yeah understanding the tourney structure and dynamics are very important

online, you can more easily determine it

but home game/live game ... you dont know how fast things will play out ... but you do know that it wont be anywhere near as fast as online

sure a live tourney that starts you with 3000 is deep stack technically, but like you say if u are seeing one hand per blind level, then the reality is you are playing a super-turbo and need to adjust accordingly

i started with poker by playing home games and watching final tables, which made me a good turbo player ... it's almost impossible to play a home game that is not at least a turbo if not super turbo and certainly final tables have a ton of fold/all in situations