How do you handle possible collusion in live tournaments?

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Gabygabygaby

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Ok I'm a bit steamed ... And I admit its bullshit money Im talking about here... But I think when collusion is suspected ... It shouldn't really matter what the stakes are... Right? So here we go...
I am playing in this bi weekly tournament at my local casino $55 buy in 28 players 3 paid. So we are 4 handed it's, me this guy ,his wife and another guy. The girl has the big stack her husband and I are stupid short.... This tournament gets silly this way . So it's obvious they are playing soft with each other but when this happens I kinda loose it. So the blinds are 2 & 4 thousand guy has 5 total. I have 7 . He goes all in for 5 chips , I fold small blind who has a little more than me folds and the wife folds for $1000 more. So she had 50k has 4k invested in a pot with 12k in it and she folds? Se was getting 12-1! I asked the floor to see her cards, but she refused and we went on to next hand where he was big blind she was small and she folded to him again. She tripled him up in 2 hands To make a long story short(er) I went out in 4th. After this hand there was a 3 way chop deal made. I told the floor I thought it was obvious they where colluding and while I was the husband said "if it where your wife... Or buddy, what would you do" I said " I'd snap call".
So like I said its small stakes. I play it for fun and practice... But this is where I play. And if I feel like I have to deal with this shit here... It's not even worth it. Ohh yeah my ROI in these tournaments is 2 to 1 maybe better
 
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Madness_does

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I had 2 jerks do the same thing to me one time, if I was you and the wife folded the small blind, I would have called even if I had 7 2 off suit, just to try and double up, cause you going out anyway. If you even play again and they make it to the final table with them, I would tell the other players hey there husband and wife and tell your story, that way the whole dam table is gunning for them.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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I would throw my card across the table and hope for it to get stuck in her forhead.
 
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jimmylytle2

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Your first post, welcome to the forum. I would buy my wife that dress she has been wanting. To break up collusion, all you can do is play aggressive :(
 
Zorba

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That sux, and welcome to CardsChat.
 
DonV73

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Ofcourse that sucks, and if you are correct, you have every right to be upset.
Was this an official organised tourney? Is there a way to talk to the tournament director (next time)?
 
MiamiMadePunk

MiamiMadePunk

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This is why I don't like playing against couples because they work together as a team and last time I checked, Poker is an individual sport, not a team sport, teamwork is not welcomed in Poker because that's considered cheating.
 
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loomis311

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It is obvious of what they are doing and unethical, but I believe there is nothing you can really do. If I brought it to attention of the casino and they were not doing anything then I would have called off really light when the guy shoved.
 
Carl Trooper

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I wouldn't play there again. The same thing happened to me at a local underground card game multiple times.

I haven't been back since.

Always soft playing with each other (the dealers).

They have a pretty good Tues tourney 150$ and its a 25$ bounty and 110 to the pool. First usually is 1200 or so with 40ish players.

3 weeks in a row I final tabled it and was always playing against 2-3 dealers.

Once it was 4 of us left, 3 of which worked there. Obviously soft playing and checking down and even apologizing they had to get involved in pots with each other.
 
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rumsey182

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i mean technically speaking they are allowed to do what they want it is very hard to prove collusion unless their is a way that the tourny can see the whole cards

if at a casino talk to the tourny director i would have also made the dealer wait to deal the next hand as you called the floor over

home game, your shit out of luck
 
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Gabygabygaby

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In first case when the guy shoved... I was certain his wife was going to call for 1 chip. So I folded. Next hand I was the short stack and first to act. With my stack I had to expect a call ( especially since I wasn't against my wife) with 8 3 off so I folded and she let her husband have the small blind. The tournament director was right there... But honestly the the director has no business directing tournaments. I complained to the floor. They said they where having a meeting about it today. I told them that the couple doesn't need to be banned... But that they should not allow them to play same tournaments or at the same cash table.
 
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Gabygabygaby

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When the woman tried to fold her hand for 1k more ( getting 12-1) I instantly said " I want to see her cards" the director said no and the cards quickly went into the muck. The director said she didn't need to expose her hand... I said I felt they where soft playing and that the director at a minimum should have looked at the hand. Honestly looking at the hand was irrelevant... How do you fold pre flop getting 12-1 when you are the big stack?
 
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zingbust

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There are cases where the player has no clue whatsoever about odds and they don't even think about the fact it's dumb not to call...all they see is they've got garbage and they have already decided ahead of time their cards are going into the muck....probably not the case here if you previously observed that the wife wasn't totally clueless, but I've seen some amazing folds by people who should be insta-calling even when there is no husband/wife playing at the table with them. This might be why the TD didn't want to look at her cards and then subsequently accuse her of collusion.
 
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WizardRubic

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With 12:1 odds, with 23 offsuit against AA where AA has 23 covered, it is still a good call. Or at least, a +EV call.

Heh. According to CC's calculator, it says 23 will beat out AA 11.8% of the time.

Zingbust may be right about the not knowing odds thing.
 
BatteredMugshot

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Thats...thats...yea, thats got to be quite irritating. Seems like online hosts have good ways of honing in on colluders and manage them well. But, what happens in that live game? I feel like early in that game a simple seat switch could fix things..but what about deep in a game like you posted? Im curious to find out what could be done if anything. post an update if any further conclusions/resolutions are found please. :)
 
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rumsey182

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technically speaking, she could actually call pre and muck her hand so she isnt even doing the best collusion she could be doing

technically speaking it is actually her right to do so, but this would likely get a warning from the director
 
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rugby0

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Collusion is much more common than anyone believes. It happens in many cases and sitautions. Being aware of the possibility is your best protection.
 
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turtelliusshellius

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Honestly, collusion is one of the hardest things to deal with and to prove. It makes it easier when it's more than just two people, but in that situation, the fact that the tourney director wouldn't even investigate is a good reason to contact his superior. When you asked to see her hand due to possible soft play he should have at least pursued some form of information from the 4th player about suspicion of collusion. If he suspected it as well then the tournament director should have issued some sort of warning and monitored the table for future incidents. The way it was handled was definitely outside of the range of "reasonable" for a casino because as a director he has specific rules he's supposed to follow as well. I would do 2 things since the situation has passed. 1. I would contact the floor manager of the casino and explain the situation and how it was not approached by the director properly. 2. If you play another tourney and they are in it, before it starts I would walk up to them and let them know that if they are at the table with each other at any point that you will be pointing out that they are husband and wife and that they collude.

Also, welcome to cardschat. It's a great place to talk poker.
 
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WizardRubic

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Problem is, the wife and husband probably don't now the odds and probably don't know what collusion is. Or they think soft play isn't collusion.

I wouldn't take the aggressive approach that turtelliusshellius outlined. It's gonna make you some enemies because they'll see you as a *insert swear word here*. On top of that, the tournament guy, as you already found out won't do anything about it so there's simply no point in making enemies of 2 people. It's a -ev move if the guy isn't gonna do something about it.
 
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hawtshawt420

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Since you knew they were husband and wife, and you knew they were playing soft on eachother all night, why would you expect her to be cut throat all of a sudden? They were clearly there for recreation and not thinking about +EV and odds and outs or anything serious poker players think about. I don't really understand why you expected her to suddenly switch gears into ruthless poker player.
 
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Gabygabygaby

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Hawtshawt420 ... I cape tend her to do the right thing because the slow play early on is really hard to prove. When you don't call getting 12-1 for 1/40th of your stack.... That's so obvious I never thought anyone would do that
 
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hawtshawt420

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That's what I'm saying though. It was an awful lay down. You and I both know it. Mostly, if not all of the CC community knows it. But that's thinking as poker players. They lead you to believe they weren't playing that way. They were playing in a way to benefit eachother, not just themselves. So it doesn't make sense, to me, to expect her to make the right call. You gotta play the player ya know.
 
jazzaxe

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I know it seems bad to get tag teamed, but once you fold your hand, you are not part of the process, you and player four folded both times and left the couple to their own devices. What you wanted to happen was for the big stack to eliminate the little stack and then you would backdoor into the money. You were in jeopardy for a reason and you need to make plays before the bubble.
 
XXPXXP

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sorry there is no way to dealing this situation.
on line I play freeroll there sure some crazy fold like 1-20 pot odds or so.

yes, they may cooperate play, but if they do not speak or show directly.
it is the player who decide to do this individually.

my idea is , to ....be a chip leader on table next time. or take the cooperate play into consideration...

GL.
 
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