How Do You Define Victory?

I play in one other League besides CardsChat. Both Leagues are comprised of an extremely-tough field of poker players... some of the best players I've ever come into contact with since 1989, the first year that poker revealed its pretty little chips to me.

A couple of weeks ago, a forum newbie posted his disappointment in placing 14th in his first League tournament, lamenting that he had gotten "nothing" for it.

Those of you who know me (especially my teammates hehe) would understand that his comment was a perfect impetus for a small discourse with him.

I asked him, "Ok, you played your first tournament here, knowing nothing about how difficult these games are, knowing nothing about how you would have to adjust your own style of play in order to compete, finishing extremely well on the other side of the money bubble, and you say that you got NOTHING for it?"

Sure, I like to "win" as much as the next guy, but why do we always seem to measure our triumphs by the amount of cash we obtain, or our ranking at the final table? Aren't there are lot more intangible, intrinsic goals which are just as important, if not more important?

After a League tournament, I always ask my teammates, as well as myself:

"Did you have fun? Did you enjoy yourself, did you relax and enjoy the moments?"

"Did you learn anything? For example, what can you do differently so that next time you can make better decisions? Did you review your hands for trouble spots? Did you discuss them with a teammate or your captain?"

"Did you remind yourself that in this game which we all love, where variance plays a vital role, that we can't be results-oriented?" The best that we can do is to continue making +EV decisions, knowing that in the long term, the dollars and the winning results will follow.

Even though I have been playing poker since 1989, and even though I took a break from poker with Black Friday and just returned again in January, I had never played in a teamplay venue before, so this concept was completely new to me.

For the first part of my first League series elsewhere, I was bubbling again and again. I became known as the League "bubble bear". Instead of overfocusing on it, I made light of it and designed a "bubble bear" t-shirt which I offered to anyone who bubbled in future games. By relaxing about it and just reminding myself to have a good time, I was eventually able to relax myself into the money.

I am constantly striving to improve my game. I ask lots and lots of questions. I post a lot of hands. I rail a lot of people. I watch a lot of videos. I read a lot of books. I am committed to the improvement of my skills, and I am open to the feedback that I graciously receive.

Most important for me, however, is in just enjoying the journey, having fun along the way. If you're not having fun when you're playing poker, then why are you doing it?

The next time that you finish short in a game or with a bad beat, please remind yourself that victories come in many forms beyond trophies.

I really think we should encourage this guy to stick around.

Very nice post Bear, good read & an excellent reminder to us all.

Thanks

This is live or what? Yes, I think live tourneys can be fun for the social aspect certainly.

Online tourneys? I can see where he/she would be coming from to be honest. I would not be happy in that situation either, no matter who the opposition. The only plus in that case is if you had learned something. If.

I play poker to learn and as a hobby / pass-time that ""may"" some day supplement my income.

For now, yes, cashing can be a victory. But as you noted above, if I learn something, I won a bit. If I enjoy the game (as I did the league game last night, you were there), I won a bit. If I can walk away form the game (cash or tourney) with a smile on my face, whether I won or lost, then I won something.

Too many people believe a win has to be cash or something material.

To crush your enemy,

To see them driven before you, and

To hear the lamentations of their women.

If I win that's victory. Cash it's small one and if I have fun and play good then I may consider it one

Not having any regrets after a session. And usually when I don't, everything else comes together; profit, happiness, self belief and a winner.

The guys left with experience and the guys left his experience with prize.

Victory is something, you could try your best to get, but the victory itself, think, you are unable to control, what you could control is the effort you take to gain victory!

LOL

PS: I always think I am improving to be a Hero when playing more, and spending more time at tables, cos the process I have done is improving, regardless what kind of results comes...LOL

Victory- the opposite of defeat.

akaRobbo said:

Not having any regrets after a session.

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:dito:

And good post, Bear.

If I play bad and win a tournament, I wont give myself any credit.
If I play what I feel is faultless game and I run into a cooler to end my game I'l be happy.

Min Cashing in the WCOOP in my first ever WCOOP I regard that a huge win.

where as donking late in in a Rebuy turbo doubling up which would lead to taking first place - I know my opponent makes the right decision and I was lucky. Not happy

I think that regardless if you "win or lose" and you are able to take something away from each session it should be considered a win. Not only are you learning about yourself and potentially you opponents but you are able to take your knowledge with you for the next session.

1st place...anything less is not a victory. Satisfaction may come from playing well, getting to the money, making new friends, feeling lucky that you have time and money to play poker, or many other reasons, but those things aren't victories.

First of all....good thread Bear....something to get me thinking.
My thoughts ? Well, I see a difference between victory and a win situation.
Imo, victory is as zingbust says...1st place.
Still, I can play gazillion of hands or tournaments without being victorious but still feel like being in a win situation.

If I would only be playing for money I wouldn't play league games or for example homegames for playchips (maybe I should consider not to play at all).

In real money tournaments anything less than making money is a loss.
Those are solitary games in which I don't feel any need to socialize or whatever.
I'm playing for the thrill of the game and the goal to make money...period.
Busting without even cashing is a loss, no matter of having some satisfaction of probably having played a good game.

Now, playing in the league or a homegame with other members, no matter what happens in the game, is a win to me already before the game starts.
The chatting about it before and after the games, socializing during the games, the teamspirit in the league etc,etc make it all more than worth the hours I spend in them without winning money.....that's a win....

Finishing first in those, ofc is a victory....
Hope I made clear I can feel being in a win situation without being victorious.

Running deep in a real money tournament....great...really feels good every time.
Playing (and railing) the league games and a friendly homegame with other members every now and than....priceless....

Victory is playing a hobby that has potential to make money. It's hope in a box that gets better with skill.

vic-to-ry

ˈvikt(ə)rē/

noun

an act of defeating an enemy or opponent in a battle, game, or other competition.


First off, great post! I look at things very similarly to the way you do. Although, I think it comes down to (individual) perception. Some of us are wired in a way that we view, learning or gaining info, as a victory of sorts. Some people just "can't" see it from that perspective, and view "victory" solely by it's definition... The main question(s) I ask myself after a MTT or session is: "Did I play well, and make the best possible decisions I could, based on the info I had? Did I do everything I could to position myself for victory?" If I answer "yes," then to me, that in itself is a (small) victory. When my answer is "yes," I always come away from the game feeling good about myself and not questioning myself or second guessing things, basically letting a bad session "eat at me" so to speak.

There is really only one answer to the question, as posed.

Coming first!!

Anything else involves defeat, at some stage, and therefore cannot count as a victory.

However there is a common phrase "a small victory" and there are many, many opportunities for those in life as well as in a poker game. Having fun, making someone laugh, just enjoying the trash talk of others, outplaying the swine that just rivered you. All of these can be counted as "small victories".

a victory is how you want to look at it if i am in a tourney and get below 50th i am happy knowing i beat out over 1000 or more other players. Even tho i didn't not make any money. The fact that i got that far is by far a victory in my mind. As long as i improve my game and figure what went wrong and try to adjust the next game its a victory in my eyes

How Do You Define Victory?

- When I'm standing over the lifeless corpse of my enemy...

1st place obviously

As long as I come out and play as good as I can I consider that a victory! Mainly because there are a lot of things in poker we cannot control, but how we play is one of the things we can control! So if I have a strong performance and play smart im happy with almost any result!

1st place is a clear sign of victory and no one can argue that! But a lot of times when you win a tournament you have to win a lot of flips and thats where the whole luck factor comes in! I agree you must be skilled to be lucky enough to win a tournament but outright winning a tournament isn't the only way you can walk away with a victory!

Kenzie 96 said:

I really think we should encourage this guy to stick around.

Very nice post Bear, good read & an excellent reminder to us all.

Thanks

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I too Ron think he's a keeper

Kenzie 96 said:

I really think we should encourage this guy to stick around.

Very nice post Bear, good read & an excellent reminder to us all.

Thanks

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waterboy73 said:

vic-to-ry

ˈvikt(ə)rē/

noun

an act of defeating an enemy or opponent in a battle, game, or other competition.


First off, great post! I look at things very similarly to the way you do. Although, I think it comes down to (individual) perception. Some of us are wired in a way that we view, learning or gaining info, as a victory of sorts. Some people just "can't" see it from that perspective, and view "victory" solely by it's definition... The main question(s) I ask myself after a MTT or session is: "Did I play well, and make the best possible decisions I could, based on the info I had? Did I do everything I could to position myself for victory?" If I answer "yes," then to me, that in itself is a (small) victory. When my answer is "yes," I always come away from the game feeling good about myself and not questioning myself or second guessing things, basically letting a bad session "eat at me" so to speak.

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the lab man said:

I too Ron think he's a keeper

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I'm a huge fan of all of you, and I think that you're keepers as well.

Paws up, sirs

I agree with a comment from waterboy73

I think it comes down to (individual) perception

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In my opinion victory depends on our objectives. If our objective is to learn then victory would be to have learnt something, even if you lost something in other terms (such as money, reputation, etc). However in reality we don't have just one objective when we do something, usually we have many (wheter we know them explicitly or not) which are interdependent, so victory would be defined in a new way, you would have victory if you satisfy all your objectives at the same time. Now that's not simple to do, and it's even harder when you try to do it with excellence, so the best way to approach victory is by using methods, calculating, and leaving (on purpose) out of the equation some factors that if considered will get you to a "lower victory". I will give a simple example to understand what i said, supose you are at a tournament, your objectives would be ending up with a prize, learn, improve your status as a player, and of course enjoy a great time (probably others too, like rivalry, etc). Now, even though life is happening and you should enjoy all the time, you leave this factor aside (enjoy) to be able to concentrate in the others, which require the use of intelligence. So if you want to improve your status you will have to play in certain way, winning some kickass hands. If you want to win a prize don't make any mistake, if you want to learn just pay attention (which requires a lot of energy), and if you want to enjoy simple relax. I like to think the factors like volume knobs, you have to regulate them to keep hearing the music with armony, if music is over ... simple that's not victory.

Faust said:

I agree with a comment from waterboy73

In my opinion victory depends on our objectives. If our objective is to learn then victory would be to have learnt something, even if you lost something in other terms (such as money, reputation, etc). However in reality we don't have just one objective when we do something, usually we have many (wheter we know them explicitly or not) which are interdependent, so victory would be defined in a new way, you would have victory if you satisfy all your objectives at the same time. Now that's not simple to do, and it's even harder when you try to do it with excellence, so the best way to approach victory is by using methods, calculating, and leaving (on purpose) out of the equation some factors that if considered will get you to a "lower victory". I will give a simple example to understand what i said, supose you are at a tournament, your objectives would be ending up with a prize, learn, improve your status as a player, and of course enjoy a great time (probably others too, like rivalry, etc). Now, even though life is happening and you should enjoy all the time, you leave this factor aside (enjoy) to be able to concentrate in the others, which require the use of intelligence. So if you want to improve your status you will have to play in certain way, winning some kickass hands. If you want to win a prize don't make any mistake, if you want to learn just pay attention (which requires a lot of energy), and if you want to enjoy simple relax. I like to think the factors like volume knobs, you have to regulate them to keep hearing the music with armony, if music is over ... simple that's not victory.

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Thanks sir. I really enjoy your analogy as well. I agree there is a fine ,line between enjoying one's self and the other stuff. Then again, some poeple really "enjoy" the learning aspect of it. So I guess no matter how we spin it, it seems it's dependent on perception. IMO