Help switching from live to online

seachicken · Apr 5, 2011

I played in my first online mtt last night. A friend transferred some money to a site I don’t plan on playing on so I could pop the cherry. (I want the first deposit bonuses) I had just split 1st place in a live 17 man tournament.

I thought I played well finishing 5 out of 38, just in the money, until he started to ask me questions.

I played like a solid Donk. I played only my cards not thinking what my opponents had, built large pots with small pot hands, made river bets that only a better hand could call or raise, made bets that my chip stack or opponents stack didn’t give me theright odds.

Two main problems I see with my online play; not enough time to evaluate the situation and not being able to read people. I have never considered myself a “tells”player but I found that I am very touchy feely.

First problem is I don’t feel I have the time to review the action. During live play after the hand ends I go over all the action and make a mental note of what happened in the hand. I have time to review the hand. Online the next hand is being dealt before I have time to really think what happened or to process who had what at the showdown.

Next no ability to read a player. My friend suggested getting a HUD and using this information. I know a lot of player’smulti table so they have to be only using HUD data but is that the only way toget a read online?

I don’t have the time to go over all the possible ev situations in big hands. We looked over my hand history after the mtt and he dealt several hands live to me. In almost 90% of the hands I made a different play.

I find myself not keeping track of the other players chip stacks. I know it’s right there on the screen but I think I forgot to even consider it at least 3 times last night.

What advice can you give me for making the transition? I know play more hands, which is the plan, but any advice would help. I think I will have to drop to smaller stake games. Live I don’t play anything less than $1/$2 and mostly 5/10 cash. And MTT’s nothing lower than $20.

Sorry for the long post but I would appreciate the help. My friend started online and I have been helping him play live but he hasn’t been a lot of help. He is great at helping me review my hands but not about advice to transition.

Zorfox · Apr 5, 2011

You seem to already have a good handle on the problem and solutions. Play more, Oh you said that. Use a HUD, oh your friend said that. Drop down in stakes, oh...well you get the idea.

All valid points. I couldn't live without my HUD after using one. When I first started playing online with a HUD it just looked like numbers. Now... well it tells an entire story. If you play only one table a HUD may not be needed. But can you remember all of those nicknames and how they played previously? I can't. You said you aren't a "tell player" but if you play live you just haven't noticed it. Your'e a tell player! That's poker.

Now without seeing the player to pickup those tells what do you have to go by? The strength of your hand and what happened in previous hands essentially. You already know the strength of your hand so why not learn to use a HUD to help with the rest. A word of caution though. Don't just play the numbers! That donk that raised 20 straight hands PF, Flop, turn and river with nothing CAN have a hand. The most important tool you have is your instinct. You just need some time to apply what you already know to online IMO.

absoluthamm · Apr 5, 2011

seachicken said:
I played in my first online mtt last night. A friend transferred some money to a site I don’t plan on playing on so I could pop the cherry. (I want the first deposit bonuses) I had just split 1st place in a live 17 man tournament.

I thought I played well finishing 5 out of 38, just in the money, until he started to ask me questions.

I played like a solid Donk. I played only my cards not thinking what my opponents had, built large pots with small pot hands, made river bets that only a better hand could call or raise, made bets that my chip stack or opponents stack didn’t give me theright odds.

Two main problems I see with my online play; not enough time to evaluate the situation and not being able to read people. I have never considered myself a “tells”player but I found that I am very touchy feely.

First problem is I don’t feel I have the time to review the action. During live play after the hand ends I go over all the action and make a mental note of what happened in the hand. I have time to review the hand. Online the next hand is being dealt before I have time to really think what happened or to process who had what at the showdown.

Next no ability to read a player. My friend suggested getting a HUD and using this information. I know a lot of player’smulti table so they have to be only using HUD data but is that the only way toget a read online?

I don’t have the time to go over all the possible ev situations in big hands. We looked over my hand history after the mtt and he dealt several hands live to me. In almost 90% of the hands I made a different play.

I find myself not keeping track of the other players chip stacks. I know it’s right there on the screen but I think I forgot to even consider it at least 3 times last night.

What advice can you give me for making the transition? I know play more hands, which is the plan, but any advice would help. I think I will have to drop to smaller stake games. Live I don’t play anything less than $1/$2 and mostly 5/10 cash. And MTT’s nothing lower than $20.

Sorry for the long post but I would appreciate the help. My friend started online and I have been helping him play live but he hasn’t been a lot of help. He is great at helping me review my hands but not about advice to transition.

Like Zorfox said, it looks like you have a good grasp on poker, but online and live are two different beasts. You seem to know a lot of what you'll need to do, but knowing what to do and doing it can be difficult for the beginning player who just wants to play.

As for your first two problems: "not enough time to evaluate the situation and not being able to read people". One big solution is to do a lot of this grunt work post-session. I'm not sure what site you're playing on, but many have hand replayers, so go through and see what you and your opponents were doing and make notes on them then, not while you're playing. That way when you play one of those players that you have notes on again, you will have that information at your fingertips without having to remember their username and what specific observations you had on them. As you get more comfortable, if you're only playing one or a couple tables, then you will be able to do this easily on the fly. One key word that makes your life a lot easier - abbreviate.

Also, about evaluating the situation, you can also learn a lot about this post-session, but along with just using the hand replayer, put your opponents ranges into and do calculations with Pokerstove(a free program). Obviously you can't run every possible situation, but the more you do away from the table and remember, the better you will be when the situation comes up at the table.

As far as using a HUD, in time, it will help you tremendously and I almost always advocate getting tracking software ASAP, but right now, you need to work more on getting used to playing online. If you aren't paying attention to chip stacks, then you won't pay attention to any of the stats on your HUD. So you would be wasting money right now.

Lastly, your buy-in amounts. You say that you're normally playing $1/2(or 200NL) to $5/10(or 1000NL) live. The common idea is that the conversion in difficulty between live and online is about 10x the stakes. So according to that, you should start out playing somewhere between $0.10/.25(or 25NL) and $0.50/1.00(or 100NL). It may seem like you're playing for peanuts at first, but with the ability that you're able to play a lot more hands per hour and that you're able to multi-table(in time), it can add up to a much higher winrate than live play. Although, once again, I would not suggest that you start at these levels at first just because you need to get familiar with playing online and the software(missing chip stacks just keeps sticking out).

I hope that helps out, if I think of anything else, I'll come back.

rssurfer54 · Apr 6, 2011

absoluthamm said:
Lastly, your buy-in amounts. You say that you're normally playing $1/2(or 200NL) to $5/10(or 1000NL) live. The common idea is that the conversion in difficulty between live and online is about 10x the stakes. So according to that, you should start out playing somewhere between $0.10/.25(or 25NL) and $0.50/1.00(or 100NL). It may seem like you're playing for peanuts at first, but with the ability that you're able to play a lot more hands per hour and that you're able to multi-table(in time), it can add up to a much higher winrate than live play. Although, once again, I would not suggest that you start at these levels at first just because you need to get familiar with playing online and the software(missing chip stacks just keeps sticking out).

Its more like x100. i.e 2nl online = 200nl live.

absoluthamm · Apr 6, 2011

rssurfer54 said:
Its more like x100. i.e 2nl online = 200nl live.

It all really depends on who you talk to, I've heard that numerous times as well, but I personally don't feel the same. At least at the casinos where I'm playing. I think about the biggest reason this could be true is that most B&M's minimum limit is $1/2, and $0.01/.02 is the lowest online, so it is the least amount a player can put up to play.

seachicken · Apr 6, 2011

Zorfox said:
You seem to already have a good handle on the problem and solutions. Play more, Oh you said that. Use a HUD, oh your friend said that. Drop down in stakes, oh...well you get the idea.

thank you for your impute. It's nice to hear that i am trying to go down the right path.

You said you aren't a "tell player" but if you play live you just haven't noticed it. You're a tell player! That's poker.

It is part of my game that i think i need to spend some more time reviewing. It's a gap in my game because i never wanted to say "i know what that means". Now i think i need to start to try to learn why i feel the way i do in a hand.

Thanks again for the reply.

absoluthamm said:
Like Zorfox said, it looks like you have a good grasp on poker, but online and live are two different beasts. You seem to know a lot of what you'll need to do, but knowing what to do and doing it can be difficult for the beginning player who just wants to play.

The reason i am here is what you are saying. I know what i need to do but i want to make sure i go about it in the right way. It was actually really helpful just to compose this post.

As for your first two problems: "not enough time to evaluate the situation and not being able to read people". One big solution is to do a lot of this grunt work post-session. I'm not sure what site you're playing on, but many have hand replayers, so go through and see what you and your opponents were doing and make notes on them then, not while you're playing. That way when you play one of those players that you have notes on again, you will have that information at your fingertips without having to remember their username and what specific observations you had on them. As you get more comfortable, if you're only playing one or a couple tables, then you will be able to do this easily on the fly. One key word that makes your life a lot easier - abbreviate.

I did replay a lot of hands after the mtt with help from my friend but i didn't take the necessary notes. I think this is something that i missed. "abbreviate" is great advice. I didn't mention the the site i am playing on because i don't want anyone coming along for seachicken donkey rides.

Also, about evaluating the situation, you can also learn a lot about this post-session, but along with just using the hand replayer, put your opponents ranges into and do calculations with Pokerstove(a free program). Obviously you can't run every possible situation, but the more you do away from the table and remember, the better you will be when the situation comes up at the table.

I love pokerstove. I have done this after live tournament and cash games. I think i need to print out the charts i have developed for quick reference. I need to take advantage of having information at my fingertips.

As far as using a HUD, in time, it will help you tremendously and I almost always advocate getting tracking software ASAP, but right now, you need to work more on getting used to playing online. If you aren't paying attention to chip stacks, then you won't pay attention to any of the stats on your HUD. So you would be wasting money right now.

This may be true but i think i may still want to get one to help review my leaks and to start building my database. I think part of the reason i didn't review the chip stacks is because i was trying to figure out other information that the hud will provide.

Lastly, your buy-in amounts. You say that you're normally playing $1/2(or 200NL) to $5/10(or 1000NL) live. The common idea is that the conversion in difficulty between live and online is about 10x the stakes. So according to that, you should start out playing somewhere between $0.10/.25(or 25NL) and $0.50/1.00(or 100NL). It may seem like you're playing for peanuts at first, but with the ability that you're able to play a lot more hands per hour and that you're able to multi-table(in time), it can add up to a much higher winrate than live play. Although, once again, I would not suggest that you start at these levels at first just because you need to get familiar with playing online and the software(missing chip stacks just keeps sticking out).

I prefer to play live for 5/10 but where i live its a limit game at the casinos. So i am forced to play 1/2 game. Plus the 1/2 cash game is tight passive.

I normally play mtt's with buy-ins from $50-$100.

I was thinking of playing in some of the sng's or mtt's with smaller buy-ins. My logic was that i could minimize my risk while maximizing the number of hand i will play.

I do have to say playing in a smaller game seems like peanuts but i get that i can play a lot more hands.

Is there any limit you would recommend. I don't know if i want to adapt my game to play against complete donks. (ironic i know)

Thank you for your reply. This really helped and gave me a lot more to think about. The reason i am here is because i hope i can minimize my blood lose while maximining my learning curve.

rssurfer54- i can see your logic but i don't know if i want to go that low. I know i am going to have to really follow bank roll management online but that seems a little low for me. I normally don't worry about my bank roll because I don't play enough live to worry (i have two kids and not enough time to play to get me in trouble) and playing 1/2 or 5/10 isn't something that can hurt too bad. I do keep detailed records so i do know where i am each month.

It's one of the reason's i have never raised my limits. Now with a game starting every minute i think it could be easy to get out of hand.

absoluthamm · Apr 6, 2011

seachicken said:
"abbreviate" is great advice. I didn't mention the the site i am playing on because i don't want anyone coming along for seachicken donkey rides.
Yea abbreviating saves so much time and hassle. Also, another thing that has helped me some with notetaking is separating your Preflop and Postflop notes in the user's note file. Helps find what you're looking for faster. And the site you're playing on didn't really matter to me, I just couldn't give any specifics on how the site does the note taking or replayer as they are all a little different

I love pokerstove. I have done this after live tournament and cash games. I think i need to print out the charts i have developed for quick reference. I need to take advantage of having information at my fingertips.
This right here reaffirms that you are knowledgeable in poker and are willing to put some time and effort into learning.

This may be true but i think i may still want to get one to help review my leaks and to start building my database. I think part of the reason i didn't review the chip stacks is because i was trying to figure out other information that the hud will provide.
As long as you're saving your hand histories, you can import them at any time into your database so you won't lose your hands. If you are wanting to try a HUD first, I would highly suggest doing the trial first, just so you can use that to get your feet wet. Tracking Software programs are fantastic tools, but some people get overloaded with the mass of information that one can have in front of them, be sure to start out simple with very few stats on your HUD, with having a very small amount of hands on opponents right now anyway, many of the other ones will not be relevant due to such a low sample size.

Is there any limit you would recommend. I don't know if i want to adapt my game to play against complete donks. (ironic i know)
You're going to find complete donks at all levels tbh. But with the fact that you've been playing live, you've probably been playing with a lot of complete donks at those $1/2 tables. I'm not sure on the type of game you play, but one thing that is usually pretty common with people transitioning from live to online is that they play too loose, so try to drop quite a few of the hands from the bottom of your range and play position a lot more. As far as what limit would I recommend? I have to ask what you plan on your bankroll being first. I would say you should probably start off at 10NL to get used to the software and work out your range, then you can move up to 25NL and go from there. Obviously, this all depends on what your bankroll is though. BTW, I'm kind of a bankroll nit.

Thank you for your reply. This really helped and gave me a lot more to think about. The reason i am here is because i hope i can minimize my blood lose while maximining my learning curve.
Glad I could help.

dj11 · Apr 6, 2011

One of the things I think are part of the transition, and may deal with the disparity of the buy-in differences, is that the live game takes a lot longer.

So, for example, you may get in a $20 live tourney, lets say 50 seats entered. You can expect (and hope) to be involved for several hours, maybe many hours. An online 50 seat (no such thing BTW, it would be 45 seats most likely), will seldom last 2 hours.

So, from a time invested POV, you could take that same $20 and spread it over many tourneys that would approximately equal a good live tourney commitment.

Plus the fees live are a lot higher per buck spent than they are online.

Negative is that multiple different scantily clad cocktail waitresses will most likely NOT show up at your PC.

Another negative, no actual chips to fiddle with.

And please, for future posts, do not change font. The beauty of the standard font is that people with seeing problems can set their displays up once and not have to worry about it...TYVM

rllngn · Apr 6, 2011

Sometimes during breaks I will go through the History of the game, or sometimes after the game and make notes on people. With ftp's replay option I can even see when they raised and when they folded during a hand. This is when I take the most notes, I never use to take them until I realized how important some notes can be.

fugitive67 · Apr 6, 2011

things are very, very streaky (variance)

don't think you'll never lose when ur on a roll

and don't think you'll never win when ur not

don't play mad and don't go out of your comfort level with stakes/tourney types

and have fun, it really is a blast no matter what stake level

seachicken · Apr 6, 2011

dj11 said:
Plus the fees live are a lot higher per buck spent than they are online.

Negative is that multiple different scantily clad cocktail waitresses will most likely NOT show up at your PC.Another negative, no actual chips to fiddle with.

And please, for future posts, do not change font. The beauty of the standard font is that people with seeing problems can set their displays up once and not have to worry about it...TYVM

I started playing poker in college for three reason. cocktail waitresses, free beer and free food in that order. okay the free beer helped make the cocktail waitresses even better but you know what i mean.

Sorry for the font change, my bad. I was having a hard time editing my post and i copied it to word and must have changed fonts.

absoluthamm- thanks again. the pre-flop/post flop notes. It would have taken me several weeks to figure that out. It seems so obvious now but i wouldn't have set it up that way.

I didn't think you would be looking to find me at a table but i am new to sharing poker information. I have really only talked about my stratagies with 4 people. I started playing nlhe mtt's in 98 (no cash games exsisted of course) and had to learn the hard way. When i started it wasn't uncommon to have only 14 people show up for a $20 buy in. Now most of what i learned is in every poker book ever written.

about the donks-i know they are everywhere but at the casino mtt's i find you only have them before the first break and than its the same 30-40 people fighting it out. Plust the remaining donks are fun targets. I just don't like 10 donks per table.

I was thinking of starting out with about 1k at two different sites. Maximize the free money but i may now start with a lower initial investment at just one site and not be tempted to get in over my head. I think being new to online i could fall into the it's just a click of the mouse to rebuy and need to first have some disipline in both bank roll and starting cards.

Thanks everyone for the help.

NineLions · Apr 6, 2011

seachicken said:
I was thinking of starting out with about 1k at two different sites. Maximize the free money but i may now start with a lower initial investment at just one site and not be tempted to get in over my head. I think being new to online i could fall into the it's just a click of the mouse to rebuy and need to first have some disipline in both bank roll and starting cards.

If you're thinking of splitting over two or more sites eventually, I'd suggest going with one for a while before starting another. The reason being that most offer a first deposit bonus which has playing volume requirements to release the bonus. It's easier to claim more of the bonus if you are focused on one site at a time rather hand dividing your playing time over two new sites at once.

And, give yourself lots of time to get used to the whole experience of playing online. In other words, don't expect or even hope to adjust after one tournament, or one session of cash tables. The speed plus the new options (sound, four-colored deck, animations, hand history, preferred seating, ect.) are going to take you a while to adjust.

illphillllllll · Apr 6, 2011

absoluthamm said:
It all really depends on who you talk to, I've heard that numerous times as well, but I personally don't feel the same. At least at the casinos where I'm playing. I think about the biggest reason this could be true is that most B&M's minimum limit is $1/2, and $0.01/.02 is the lowest online, so it is the least amount a player can put up to play.

on weekends i think this conversion is true but the B+M small stakes regs are better then the micro regs online imo.

ariesj11 · Apr 7, 2011

Hi seachicken i myself have gone from live play to on-line in the last 6 months. I find using a poker calculator cuts out a lot of the donkey work. I use tournament poker indicator which basically uses Harrington's m zone theory which is the size of the blinds and ante's compared to their stack. There is also loads more info as well, but i would like to ask other people on this thred if holdem manager or poker office are worth investing in as i believe they can help you plug your leaks in your game.

absoluthamm · Apr 7, 2011

ariesj11 said:
Hi seachicken i myself have gone from live play to on-line in the last 6 months. I find using a poker calculator cuts out a lot of the donkey work. I use tournament poker indicator which basically uses Harrington's m zone theory which is the size of the blinds and ante's compared to their stack. There is also loads more info as well, but i would like to ask other people on this thred if holdem manager or poker office are worth investing in as i believe they can help you plug your leaks in your game.

Holdem Manager and PokerTracker are well worth the investment and can do loads to improve your game over what an indicator can do. Poker Office is a waste of money as it doesn't have as many features and it is a subscription program.

ariesj11 · Apr 11, 2011

poker calculator

absoluthamm said:
Holdem Manager and PokerTracker are well worth the investment and can do loads to improve your game over what an indicator can do. Poker Office is a waste of money as it doesn't have as many features and it is a subscription program.

Thanks for the advice absoluthamm. Can you tell the best way to get Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker.

absoluthamm · Apr 11, 2011

ariesj11 said:
Thanks for the advice absoluthamm. Can you tell the best way to get Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker.

Go to www.holdemmanager.com or www.pokertracker3.com and buy it. Don't waste your time with trying to get it free through signing up for a site because if you're broke enough that you can't buy it, then it will take you forever to get the amount of points needed, and you still need to deposit to a new site, and also, you will forgo ever getting rakeback on whatever site it is, and the rakeback will add up to much more over time than the cost of HEM.

Help switching from live to online

seachicken

Rock Star

Zorfox

Rising Star

absoluthamm

<==Poker Face

rssurfer54

Visionary

absoluthamm

<==Poker Face

seachicken

Rock Star

absoluthamm

<==Poker Face

dj11

Legend

rllngn

Rock Star

fugitive67

Rock Star

seachicken

Rock Star

NineLions

Advanced beginner

illphillllllll

Rock Star

ariesj11

Rock Star

absoluthamm

<==Poker Face

ariesj11

Rock Star

absoluthamm

<==Poker Face

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