Help me with this situation

HolePairs

HolePairs

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In an nl Omaha hand last night. 10d 3d 8c. On flop. Turn brings a Jd. 10c on river
Heads up at this point. First to act checked. Second to act goes all in. First guy says that
The river just screwed his hand and then says I only got the flush as he lays his hand down in center of table not in front of him by his chips but out in the middle muck area. He said nothing else no call or fold

I said he folded by his actions. He disputed this. Did he fold or can he say call at this point
Please help
 
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Was this game played at a casino or at a home game? If it was played at a casino, then the dealer should've taken his cards away and given you the pot. You can argue that what he did was angle-shooting.
 
HolePairs

HolePairs

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Home game and I stood up to rack in the pot we argued for a second and said he was calling
I said because no statement made that his actions spoke for him
 
dj11

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In a casino I would think the limit line comes into play (if there is one). Player who needs to call could turn his flush up just to get a reaction, if he did it behind the line.
 
HolePairs

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Yes but he didn't turn them up behind the line he putvthem in center of table
 
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You need to establish rules about angle-shooting. I would say that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable, due to forward motion, but you need to agree on these rules beforehand at the home game.
 
HolePairs

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Same guy has the worst etiquette ever and alwYs slow rolls everyone
We have verbal is binding rule This is a first. Earlier that evening two players heads up 4A9 flop
First to act bet out other guy open mucked QQ into middle same way, first bet racked in pot. So it's not the first time we have had open mucked folds at table. Happens a lot.

Same as if you throw one chip in without announcement it's only a call

Be same to throw in one chip and take it out and say fold in my opinion

You can't do it. You can't put your cards in center of table without saying anything otherwise it's a fold right
 
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MediaBLITZ

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Well you need to only let him get away with his crap ONCE - a house rule needs to be made to address each of his shenanigans. He's obviously an angle shooter and if you aren't going to kick him out then get him in line.
 
HolePairs

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So in a gentle mans home game is it a fold or no
 
dj11

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So in a gentle mans home game is it a fold or no

It is whatever you all decided at that time, but prevent this from happening again by clarifying things beforehand.
 
MediaBLITZ

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If this had happened at a home game that I was involved in and their was a vote put to the players I would:

1st - Vote that on that particular hand it was NOT a fold. Angle shooting and conduct not in the spirit of the game does not always constitute a direct breach of rules.

2nd - Strongly suggest that another vote be taken that in the future any kind of action like that be considered a fold. That way there would be a rule to cover it.
 
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andreii955

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hm , is great in poker home , is your rules :))
 
detroitjunkie

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ok, it does matter about what rules you want to go by.

a lot of card rooms will allow a player to show his hand to another if and ONLY if the players are heads up, regardless of where they place them on the table (exceptions - on top of another players cards, on top of the muck pile - both are dead - funny too, if he dropped them on another players cards - BOTH hands are dead, ouch) .i assume, though it was not mentioned, that the player had his cards turned face up in this scenario, if they were face down then its a muck (of sorts - back to this in a minute).

this is a cash game rule and is only for heads up play...if there are been another player to act behind this person then the hand is dead (or heavily penalized) -dead in most Michigan rooms at least, and about half of the Vegas ones.

as i said, most card rooms allow this, some do not and would either kill the hand, or penalize the player (but pay him if he won) which may include kicking him out, maybe for good.

if they were turned face down, they are mucked, however most card rooms allow hands to be retrieved from muck if 100% clearly identifiable and there is a good and fair reason for it to happen.

I have always been saying people must know the rules of your game before you go play live, this is the same for home games - find a rule book online, whether it be TDA, Roberts Rules, or wsop, or whatever, and let everyone know ahead of time what book you are ruling from. You should also have a dealer that does not play, and someone running the floor decisions.

I think in this situation the player has the right to still say call or fold, IF his hand was face up, this is how I would, and have, ruled it based on the rules we use at my card rooms.

Now most of the above is if it were a cash game. if this is a tourney then different rules apply. If hand was face up it is never dead, no matter what (again unless dropped on top of another players hand or the muck pile), and most rooms will consider it a passive hand - meaning he can not raise or bet with it but can call. after the hand is over the player will get a penalty of sitting out for 20 minutes or so.

A lot of players seem to think that if cards pass forward they are auto dead, but its just not true, sorry
 
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