Hastings vs. Isildur1 Cheating?

keaton

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There is an article at HighStakesNews.com that discusses the Isildur1/Hastings head up matches. It seems that Hastings, Brian Townsend, and (maybe) Cole South shared a hand history database of Isildur1's hands.

Full Tilt terms:

“Shared hand history databases and “data mining” software, including subscription services and the exchange of personal databases: The use of shared hand histories provides detailed information on opponents a player has little or no personal experience playing against, and is deemed to be an unfair advantage. Violating this policy is subject to the maximum penalties for prohibited software use.

Players are not permitted to use the hand histories for hands that they have not personally participated in. Software designed to collect hand history information from games that the player did not participate in is prohibited.”

Do you consider this cheating?
 
Poof

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I could be wrong but I am sure Isledur studied them before playing and he came in like a bat out of hell gunning for
the pros, I think its fair play.
 
S93

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No difrent then 3 friends that play at the same casino and share thoughts/reads on the regs that play there imo.
 
PC69

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“Shared hand history databases and “data mining” software, including subscription services and the exchange of personal databases: The use of shared hand histories provides detailed information on opponents a player has little or no personal experience playing against, and is deemed to be an unfair advantage.
Do you consider this cheating?

highlighted in Bold is the answer to your ?.. These players have all played a considerable amount with Isildurrr so according to there Terms they did not cheat as they didnt have little or no personal experience playing with him.. They were totally within the rules
 
canucks921

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no i don't believe it is cheating, you can study all you want but you still have to go out and beat him yourself. poker is all about studying your opponent, they did a great job in my mind.
 
Jack Daniels

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No difrent then 3 friends that play at the same casino and share thoughts/reads on the regs that play there imo.
Yeah, and AK is a drawing hand. :eek: Discussing a player between friends (including thoughts and reads) is one thing. Pooling specific detailed information on ALL hands the three of them played against him is completely different. But probably no sense in arguing this since rationalization is a huge part of human tendency.

But whether or not people like the idea of sharing HH DBs or not it doesn't matter. The fact is that it is a violation of the TOS if they did it and if it is true then they should all be held accountable. Being a pro doesn't make them above the law (or in this case a sites TOS).
 
PC69

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JD... Is my assumption of the quote from the terms and conditions from FTP correct?
 
RJB-7

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Latest installment from Brian Townsends blog:


I wanted to clear up some allegations about Brian Hastings, Cole South and myself. First Brian H. Cole S and myself never colluded. Collusion is nearly impossible HU but there was always one person playing and never any ghosting occurring. In fact the only person to break the T&C of FullTilt Poker was myself. I had about 20k hands of play on Isildur and I acquired another 30k hands. This is against the T&C of FullTilt Poker and because of this violation I am going to have my red pro status suspended for one month.

Of the three I was the sole one to break the T&C of FullTilt. The three of us never shared hands where mucked hands were shown besides a few hands I posted on weaktight.org, and in fact all the information I received could be taken from watching the game. This is not saying what I did wasn't wrong as FullTilt is very clear in its T&C, rather to clear up they type of wrong doing I partook in.


As for the accusations of team play Cole Hastings and I live about 3000 miles from each other. I have never played on Brian H's or Cole S's account. As for "conglomerating hand histories," it's simply not an accurate statement. I analyzed the database I put together, and the three of us chatted about my analysis, and optimal strategy against Isildur. According to Full Tilt's T&C this is a permissible discussion as it's super common for players at all stakes to discuss strategy and certain players tendencies. Any discussion we had occured away from the table when we were not playing a session.
 
Jack Daniels

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JD... Is my assumption of the quote from the terms and conditions from FTP correct?
Here is the entire rule from the TOS:

FTP TOS said:
2. Shared hand history databases and "data mining" software, including subscription services and the exchange of personal databases:
The use of shared hand histories provides detailed information on opponents a player has little or no personal experience playing against, and is deemed to be an unfair advantage. Violating this policy is subject to the maximum penalties for prohibited software use.

Players are not permitted to use the hand histories for hands that they have not personally participated in. Software designed to collect hand history information from games that the player did not participate in is prohibited. Some specific examples include:
  • Poker Edge
  • Poker Crusher
  • SpadeEye
  • IdleMiner
  • HandHQ
  • community shared hand histories
  • exchanging hand histories with a friend
See the bold red text I highlighted above. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about right or wrong nor how doing it in any way can be rationalized. The TOS that every player agreed to applies and if HH were shared then they violated the TOS and should be punished.
 
PC69

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Here is the entire rule from the TOS:

See the bold red text I highlighted above. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about right or wrong nor how doing it in any way can be rationalized. The TOS that every player agreed to applies and if HH were shared then they violated the TOS and should be punished.

You got me bro.. By that then yes they were. Thought i was missing something thus the reason I asked
 
bazerk

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Isn't Brian Townsend the peep who admitted to multiple accts @ FT & PS last yr?
 
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Unfair

I think its unfair...But the rumors I hear at Isildur1 is a group of European poker players switching off on one account...Isn't this considered cheating as well?
 
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Yeah, and AK is a drawing hand. :eek: Discussing a player between friends (including thoughts and reads) is one thing. Pooling specific detailed information on ALL hands the three of them played against him is completely different. But probably no sense in arguing this since rationalization is a huge part of human tendency.

But whether or not people like the idea of sharing HH DBs or not it doesn't matter. The fact is that it is a violation of the TOS if they did it and if it is true then they should all be held accountable. Being a pro doesn't make them above the law (or in this case a sites TOS).
First time offense of this law (lol law) is only a warning. So to be red pro banned which is just lol is more punishment that the average player will receive but if you have sites like PTR and others that sell HH then you really cannot expect the rule to be followed too closely. That combined with just a warning as punishment and a very hard think for ftp to find out about, its not that big a deal and should not be on the TOS

Isn't Brian Townsend the peep who admitted to multiple accts @ FT & PS last yr?
Ok, he was red pro banned on ftp for 6 months for the multi account thing but the average player will not face reprimand other than having the second account deleted and the money transfered back to the first account. He did not enter both accounts into the same game so I do not have a problem with this.
 
S93

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@marginal, didnt Hasting also said he opend the new acount so people would know he was forced to move down in stakes?
 
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Marginal

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@marginal, didnt Hasting also said he opend the new acount so people would know he was forced to move down in stakes?

That was Townsend and you can treat that case like someone who created an account for rakeback. The rakeback account would be closed and the money credited to the original account as long as they did not enter both into the same games.
 
A

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Here is the entire rule from the TOS:

See the bold red text I highlighted above. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about right or wrong nor how doing it in any way can be rationalized. The TOS that every player agreed to applies and if HH were shared then they violated the TOS and should be punished.

So sharing hh's in the hand analysis forum is against full tilts rules?
 
S93

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So sharing hh's in the hand analysis forum is against full tilts rules?
No,because:
A. If you follow the forum rules u would actualy convert your hands.
B. 1 hand hardly counts as sharing a database.
 
Sean Pilgrim

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So sharing hh's in the hand analysis forum is against full tilts rules?

If the hand is not converted then yes technically. UN's need to be changed for analysis anyway.
 
PC69

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Sindri if there doing something that is exactly referring to doing opposite of the terms and conditions of full tilt poker how is that not cheating.. This is not intended to start trouble.. Iam asking a question.. Thats all..
 
S93

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Sindri if there doing something that is exactly referring to doing opposite of the terms and conditions of full tilt poker how is that not cheating.. This is not intended to start trouble.. Iam asking a question.. Thats all..
I asume your refering to my first post in this thread? since the second one was me answering some one that said HA was breaking the FTP rules.

Any way i really didnt know that the FTP TOC said sharing HH with a friend was against the rules, i did know that datamining and buying HH was forbiden but didnt realize the other part until JD pointed it out.

Clearly if its against the rules of FTP they should be punished(asuming its true) but i really dont have a problem with what they (suposedly) did(or datamining or buying HH for that matter but thats a difrent subject).
I mean Isildur could have logged on to PTR or any other of the hundreds of sites that sell HH and bought every hand Hastings,Cole,Townsend,Durrrr ect had ever played and there for had a signifcant edge over them(and even if he didnt do that he still had the advantage of beeing a unknown where as he had atleast some idea as to how they all play).

The information is all out there and i personaly dont have a problem with people accesing it.
But yeah im not disagreeing with u on the fact that if the rumours a true there in violation with TOC,like JD pointed out they clearly are.
My opinon is still so i dont have a problem with what they did or with datamining/buying HH(not that if ever bought HH, dont play high enough stakes to justify it).

Im rambling but basicly yes if true they broke the rules, yes they should be punished but i think the rules are stupid :).
 
PC69

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Now I think the rumors are true after searching for some of the information.. While I understand your points sindri (and there valid) I think the issue lies within the fact that it wasnt one person trying to gain a edge from previous hands played by one player.. It was 3.. Thats truly unfair as there all great players with great abilities to take this information and basically form a unbeatable strategy against Isildurrr. I think if Isildurrr can somehow prove this (which i dont know if he can) then he is entitled to some sort of repayment by FTP...

Iam a little bit shocked in the fact that one of the 3 accused players would be so naive and careless to let this sort of information leak out..
 
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That is a result of how ridiculous the rules are.
 
Jack Daniels

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First time offense of this law (lol law) is only a warning. So to be red pro banned which is just lol is more punishment that the average player will receive
Do you have a formal source for the first offense being only a warning? All I have to go by is what FTP has published that every player agreed to abide by:
Originally Posted by FTP TOS
Violating this policy is subject to the maximum penalties for prohibited software use.




So sharing hh's in the hand analysis forum is against full tilts rules?

No,because:
B. 1 hand hardly counts as sharing a database.
^ this. Hand analysis does not violate their TOS because it is one hand or a few hands, not a DB as sindri points out. Additionally looking at it in HA is not "using" it. There could be an argument made for some gray area if people ran around pulling HH from HA posts and trying to load them into HEM or PT. But even doing that would be worthless because the number of hands would be insignificant.

A. If you follow the forum rules u would actualy convert your hands.
Though we don't have a rule requiring hands be converted, though I think it is pretty highly encouraged (and because many regulars either won't reply or they will give the unconverted HH poster grief over it). :)

basicly yes if true they broke the rules, yes they should be punished but i think the rules are stupid :).
^^^ I could concur with this. :D My wife doesn't like the seatbelt law, but she wears her seatbelt because she'll get a ticket if caught not wearing it.
 
Jack Daniels

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That is a result of how ridiculous the rules are.
So your stance is that if you don't like a rule that you agreed to, then you're within your rights to simply ignore it and violate it? So all the idiots that multi-account are okay with you? I'll assume you don't mind collusion either then since I'm sure there are some people out there that would like to work together and choose to ignore the rule about collusion because they don't like that one. :eek:
 
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Its not a formal source but I know some guys who have been could datamining (do not ask me how they got caught, seems like it is near impossible to get caught) but they only got a warning and that the second offense would result in some sort of ban.
 
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