Half-Bet Rule War

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ssbn743

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Hey everyone, I’m so sick of the half-bet rule being incorrectly applied I’m just about ready to do something about it. I’ve seen it incorrectly applied in NL cash games and NL tournaments everywhere I’ve ever played – California, Colorado, Vegas, Foxwoods, Choctaw….I think that’s about it.

Anyway, I typically play tournaments, and saw this just yesterday at my local casino in a daily event, but slightly less recently at the Wynn Signature event this past weekend; and in my opinion, the Wynn staff is damn good, so I’m wondering if they are actually right and I am wrong.

I don’t remember specific examples, but if blinds were $1K/$2K, we’d have a player open to $4.5K and another accidentally toss in $6K in chips. The floor will subsequently be called over and will rule every single time that the $6K is more than half way to the required $7K and make the player raise to $7K.

Now, I just don’t care most of the time…and I almost never say anything…however, that is the wrong ruling unless I am missing something. Per wsop and TDA rules, the half-bet rule only applies to limit games, not no limit games with only one exception. Meaning that the accidental $6K in chips is a $4.5K call. Here it is:

Source: rule 93, WSOP rule book -

93. Raises: If a participant puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed.

In no-limit and pot-limit, all raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round. An all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a participant who has already acted.

Exception - two consecutive all-in wagers that exceed the minimum allowable bet or raise. By way of example, participant A - bets 500, participant B - raises to 1,000, participant C - calls 1,000, participant D - moves all-in for 1,300, participant E - moves all-in for 1,700. If participant A calls or folds, then participants B & C will have an option to raise. The minimum allowable raise will be equal to the last complete raise. In this example, the last complete raise was 500; therefore, participants B or C would be allowed to call 1,700 and raise 500 for a total wager of 2,200. Also, participants B or C could raise more than 500. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)
Now, I have also noticed that most casinos typically state that “House/TDA rules apply”. At my local casino, I’ve noted the house rules state “half-bet rule applies to structured games”.

“Structured” games? Does the term “structured” imply a poker tournament? Or, does structure mean like I take it and refer to a limit poker game?

Anyway, bottom line – I’m sick to death of this idiocrasy and just want to make sure I’m not missing something before starting a war with the floor staff that will probably defend their half-bet decisions to death. Does anyone have any explanation of this issue? Do house rules dictate that the half-bet rule does indeed apply to NL cash games and NL Poker tournaments?
 
Brandlad

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Your question is needed to be answered by poker regulators.
 
Edison A

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Hey everyone, I’m so sick of the half-bet rule being incorrectly applied I’m just about ready to do something about it. I’ve seen it incorrectly applied in NL cash games and NL tournaments everywhere I’ve ever played – California, Colorado, Vegas, Foxwoods, Choctaw….I think that’s about it.

Anyway, I typically play tournaments, and saw this just yesterday at my local casino in a daily event, but slightly less recently at the Wynn Signature event this past weekend; and in my opinion, the Wynn staff is damn good, so I’m wondering if they are actually right and I am wrong.

I don’t remember specific examples, but if blinds were $1K/$2K, we’d have a player open to $4.5K and another accidentally toss in $6K in chips. The floor will subsequently be called over and will rule every single time that the $6K is more than half way to the required $7K and make the player raise to $7K.

Now, I just don’t care most of the time…and I almost never say anything…however, that is the wrong ruling unless I am missing something. Per WSOP and TDA rules, the half-bet rule only applies to limit games, not no limit games with only one exception. Meaning that the accidental $6K in chips is a $4.5K call. Here it is:
Source: rule 93, WSOP rule book -

93. Raises: If a participant puts in a raise of 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed.

In no-limit and pot-limit, all raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round. An all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a participant who has already acted.

Exception - two consecutive all-in wagers that exceed the minimum allowable bet or raise. By way of example, participant A - bets 500, participant B - raises to 1,000, participant C - calls 1,000, participant D - moves all-in for 1,300, participant E - moves all-in for 1,700. If participant A calls or folds, then participants B & C will have an option to raise. The minimum allowable raise will be equal to the last complete raise. In this example, the last complete raise was 500; therefore, participants B or C would be allowed to call 1,700 and raise 500 for a total wager of 2,200. Also, participants B or C could raise more than 500. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)
Now, I have also noticed that most casinos typically state that “House/TDA rules apply”. At my local casino, I’ve noted the house rules state “half-bet rule applies to structured games”.

“Structured” games? Does the term “structured” imply a poker tournament? Or, does structure mean like I take it and refer to a limit poker game?

Anyway, bottom line – I’m sick to death of this idiocrasy and just want to make sure I’m not missing something before starting a war with the floor staff that will probably defend their half-bet decisions to death. Does anyone have any explanation of this issue? Do house rules dictate that the half-bet rule does indeed apply to NL cash games and NL Poker tournaments?

too much theory! 📚📖📑📒📓
 
MattRyder

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In no-limit and pot-limit, all raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round. An all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a participant who has already acted.
Interesting. I know nothing about the rules, and rarely play live, but every once in a while I wonder why the pokerstars client will only let me call, rather than re-rasing a raise. I assumed it was a bug in the software, but maybe it was an actual rule coming into play.
 
OzExorcist

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My understanding was always that the half-bet rule was only for limit too.


[/INDENT][/INDENT]Interesting. I know nothing about the rules, and rarely play live, but every once in a while I wonder why the Pokerstars client will only let me call, rather than re-rasing a raise. I assumed it was a bug in the software, but maybe it was an actual rule coming into play.

Typically, that will be when the raise is someone going all-in, but for an amount that wouldn't otherwise constitute a legal raise.
 
mtl mile end

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Just get an explanation from the staff at the Wynn. They actually make the rules, so their answer will be the correct one - maybe you can change it...

I have only played live in two rooms. I've never played limit live. I can say that this has never, to my recollection, come up. If a player puts a single chip (of any denomination) into the pot without saying anything, it's a call. If a player says "raise" and puts an insufficient amount of chips into the pot without saying an amount, it's a min-raise. If a player puts more than one chip into the pot that is more than a call and less than a legal raise without saying a word - I don't know. I've never seen the "half bet" rule applied. I think if the player hasn't said "raise", it's a call.
 
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Here ya go

One place that players and sometimes tournament directors get confused is the 50% rule. You’ll hear this a lot: “UTG can raise (after the 750 all in) because the incomplete raise (250) is more than half of a legal raise” (300, or half being 150). This is wrong. This is always, unconditionally, wrong. There is no “half the raise” rule in NLHE except for when people make mistakes. What does that mean? Here’s an example.
Blinds 100/200. UTG throws out three 100 chips without saying anything, attempting to raise to 300 (in this example UTG is not all-in). Perhaps the blinds just went up and UTG forgot, and so his raise to 300 is illegal now. This is the only type of situation where the 50% rule applies. UTG’s illegal bet is 50% of a legal raise. It’s 100 more than the BB, but it needed to be at least 200 more. In this case, UTG will be forced to make a minimum raise – to 400 – because his illegal action is 50% of a legal raise.
That 50% rule only applies in this illegal raise situation. It’s how we decide what you will be forced to do (call or raise) when you make an in-between illegal action. The 50% rule has no bearing on legal all-in bets.
 
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And from the TDA rules... Rule #47

"A raise must be at least equal to the largest prior bet or raise of the current betting round. If a player raises 50% or more of the largest prior bet but less than a minimum raise, he or she must make a full minimum raise. If less than 50% it is a call unless “raise” is first declared or the player is all-in (Rule 50-B)."
 
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ssbn743

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I'm with you, except I still don't understand why the 50% rule applies to the $300 situation you highlighted, but not to my $6K situation. Is it really another one of those TDA "thumb" rules we all love so much.
Also, the rule you quoted applies to limit poker correct?
 
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SteaknEggz

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this kind of rule is gonna be up to the casino/pokerroom....right?
 
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