Gut feeling VERSUS MATH genius.

vinylspiros · Dec 7, 2012

I think i speak on behalf of the majority when i say. Im no math wizard. i know how many cards i need to win(outs) and more or less the basic formula to know the percentage of hitting those outs but MATH just AINT my thing. are good math people better at poker than others who just have gut feelins and play a certain style. should i take up a stastistics and math course to get better at my poker game? (lol) seriously: question of thread. are all poker pros mathematical geniuses? or not? can someone that doesnt love math do good at poker in the LONG RUN?
sometimes the numbers dont add up and ur call is a bad call but u feel like making it and ur right too. they will tel you,it was a bad call u got lucky and they may be right. example.what do you do when your gut says "call" but your math says "its an unprofitable longterm call"?

TheseNutsWin · Dec 7, 2012

You dont need to be good in math to play well but when reviewing sessions you need to use math.

duggs · Dec 7, 2012

its very hard to separate the correlation between poker ability and high levels of logic and maths

AlfieAA · Dec 7, 2012

I'm shit at maths too vinyl dont worry about it, eventually you pick it all up without thinking too much..

Beanfacekilla · Dec 7, 2012

I think that any player can be good, they don't have to be a math whiz.

However, basic math should be used to calculate certain things on the fly. Things like pot odds, and percentage of hitting your card(s).

I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep studying poker theory a little at a time. Any serious poker player should always continue learning about the game.

domeburglar · Dec 7, 2012

I think that its alot easier to be good online if you are good at math as opposed to just going off "Feel".. live play theres alot more things you can take into account to add to that feeling of what situations are good or bad.. online you just dont have the psychological dynamic so its much better to be good at math..

kltpzyxMrM · Dec 8, 2012

Try to memorize a small chart of odds like this chart [link no longer works] No math yet just memorization. Then use the rule of 4 & 2 for flop and turn decisions, it's not precise, but good enough in most spots. Anyone can multiply x4 or x2. Like previously stated, if you review enough hands after a session with an odds calculator, then eventually you know just by looking at a situation and not actually calculating the odds in your head.

vinylspiros · Dec 8, 2012

domeburglar said:
I think that its alot easier to be good online if you are good at math as opposed to just going off "Feel".. live play theres alot more things you can take into account to add to that feeling of what situations are good or bad.. online you just dont have the psychological dynamic so its much better to be good at math..

yea i see what u mean,yea i guess your right.havent ever played live yet (embarassing statement), especially since ive been playing online for more than 3 years. thanks alot for the reply.

vinylspiros · Dec 8, 2012

kltpzyxMrM said:
Try to memorize a small chart of odds like this chart http://www.calculatem.com/online-poker-odds.html. No math yet just memorization. Then use the rule of 4 & 2 for flop and turn decisions, it's not precise, but good enough in most spots. Anyone can multiply x4 or x2. Like previously stated, if you review enough hands after a session with an odds calculator, then eventually you know just by looking at a situation and not actually calculating the odds in your head.

thanks alot man yea i checked it out. ill try to learn that table.ill put it on a wall next to my laptop. heheh. thanks for replying.

Poker Orifice · Dec 8, 2012

I was always a math wiz.. even as a yound kid, so I guess I'm lucky.

I'd suggest working on it if it doesn't come naturally for you. I actually really enjoy working on it which is obviously a good thing.

I have a question for you (a simple one)... if you're in a tournament situation, you've raised in whatever position and another player now re-raises allin (on whatever stack.. say it be 15bb's... or 20.. 24.. whatever). Aren't you interested in knowing if your call here in this spot is +ev? Don't you want to know how much equity you'd need vs. villain's range to know if calling off is a good thing or a bad thing? (just from a chip ev aspect)
This is just one very, very, very small example. Personally I can't understand how one can study the game w/o getting deep'ish' into the math.

Iselo · Dec 8, 2012

kltpzyxMrM said:
Try to memorize a small chart of odds like this chart http://www.calculatem.com/online-poker-odds.html. No math yet just memorization. Then use the rule of 4 & 2 for flop and turn decisions, it's not precise, but good enough in most spots. Anyone can multiply x4 or x2. Like previously stated, if you review enough hands after a session with an odds calculator, then eventually you know just by looking at a situation and not actually calculating the odds in your head.

This is what I do, just memorize all relevant charts that I've come across. I hear that as a beginner you have to start out playing by math (or memorized charts) and that the more experienced you get and the higher stakes you play it becomes less about maths and more about psychology. But it'd say it's best to learn the math part first so you get the basics down. Also, the people I know who actually make a living out of poker are certainly no math geniuses but some how they sure are poker geniuses.
Good luck at the tables

vinylspiros · Dec 8, 2012

Poker Orifice said:
I was always a math wiz.. even as a yound kid, so I guess I'm lucky.

I'd suggest working on it if it doesn't come naturally for you. I actually really enjoy working on it which is obviously a good thing.

I have a question for you (a simple one)... if you're in a tournament situation, you've raised in whatever position and another player now re-raises allin (on whatever stack.. say it be 15bb's... or 20.. 24.. whatever). Aren't you interested in knowing if your call here in this spot is +ev? Don't you want to know how much equity you'd need vs. villain's range to know if calling off is a good thing or a bad thing? (just from a chip ev aspect)
This is just one very, very, very small example. Personally I can't understand how one can study the game w/o getting deep'ish' into the math.

this might sound crazy but i will know the answer to that through experience. i wont have exact mathemaatical percentages in my mind but i will know if it is worth calling depending on what im holding and what my stack size is and what im being asked to call off(his stack size) and how many people will call behind me. ive come out 1-9th place in 3000 people + MTT's without knowing the exact percentages of calling all ins and fold equity. Generally speaking my opinion is that even if u not too good with the math, endless hours of practice and experience can give u the answers to these questions.meaning i might not know if im going to win 50% or 20% of the time but i know if im more likely to win or not. am i talking like a retard or does any of what i just said make any sense to you? ty very much for answering with that great example.

Blown01Cobra · Dec 8, 2012

I think math is only important up to a point of calculating pot odds and card odds. In online poker, those things are going to give you the most edge because players move around so much and because you can never really get to know a person or their facial expressions. Even in tournaments, you can get moved around from table to table without enough time to really get a grasp on how an opponent plays.

That said, math will only get you so far, especially in a live game. Even in online poker, where tells are going to be especially difficult, sometimes (especially if it's a free roll in my case) I just have to go with a feeling as to how I think an opponent will react if I make a certain move, generally a bluff. Knowing whether to play tight or loose, knowing when to and when not to bluff, and even when you can pressure an opponent out of a pot is a result of a lot more than just calculating odds. You can calculate odds all day long, but its when you develop a feeling about how the others will react to certain decisions you make that I think you can really expand your game - but that's hard to do when you're playing against a constantly changing group of players. Then again, the whole reason you make a decision in poker from a tell is based upon the probability that their reaction will be as you assumed.

vinylspiros · Dec 8, 2012

Blown01Cobra said:
I think math is only important up to a point of calculating pot odds and card odds. In online poker, those things are going to give you the most edge because players move around so much and because you can never really get to know a person or their facial expressions. Even in tournaments, you can get moved around from table to table without enough time to really get a grasp on how an opponent plays.

That said, math will only get you so far, especially in a live game. Even in online poker, where tells are going to be especially difficult, sometimes (especially if it's a free roll in my case) I just have to go with a feeling as to how I think an opponent will react if I make a certain move, generally a bluff. Knowing whether to play tight or loose, knowing when to and when not to bluff, and even when you can pressure an opponent out of a pot is a result of a lot more than just calculating odds. You can calculate odds all day long, but its when you develop a feeling about how the others will react to certain decisions you make that I think you can really expand your game - but that's hard to do when you're playing against a constantly changing group of players. Then again, the whole reason you make a decision in poker from a tell is based upon the probability that their reaction will be as you assumed.

I hear you brother. and i agree on basically everything you said. in online poker, i like to use little scouting bets or big scouting bets,depending on the flop or turn,to get a basic feeling about where my opponent is compared to where i am.little things like,"time of reaction", or his reaction to my move(checks back reraises whatever) are the only real tells u can get. but yea overall i agree with your post and have thought about what you said.thank you again.

PtomainePtolemy · Dec 8, 2012

I can't remember where but I read an article once in some poker mag or newsletter about this topic. It said what people refer to as intuition may not be all that different from playing as a mathematical player. If you seen a situation before that memory is stored in your unconscious. Eventually through repetition you'll get conditioned to make the optimal math play and it will seem instinctual.

OzExorcist · Dec 8, 2012

A few thoughts:

- Math is no more or less important live than it is online. The math is just easier to do online because all the numbers are right there in front of you whereas live you're expected to keep track of the pot size etc for yourself. And being able to make reads and look at tells live doesn't make the math any less important.

- The math you need to be doing at the table isn't actually that hard. You don't have to be a 'genius' to do it, so don't let the fact that it might look a little confusing at first put you off learning it. You don't actually need to be able to make precise EV calculations at the table while you're playing - that's for after the game when you've actually got time to analyse hands.

vinylspiros · Dec 9, 2012

PtomainePtolemy said:
I can't remember where but I read an article once in some poker mag or newsletter about this topic. It said what people refer to as intuition may not be all that different from playing as a mathematical player. If you seen a situation before that memory is stored in your unconscious. Eventually through repetition you'll get conditioned to make the optimal math play and it will seem instinctual.

very interesting!!!!

Arjonius · Dec 9, 2012

vinylspiros said:
this might sound crazy but i will know the answer to that through experience. i wont have exact mathemaatical percentages in my mind but i will know if it is worth calling depending on what im holding and what my stack size is and what im being asked to call off(his stack size) and how many people will call behind me. ive come out 1-9th place in 3000 people + MTT's without knowing the exact percentages of calling all ins and fold equity. Generally speaking my opinion is that even if u not too good with the math, endless hours of practice and experience can give u the answers to these questions.meaning i might not know if im going to win 50% or 20% of the time but i know if im more likely to win or not. am i talking like a retard or does any of what i just said make any sense to you? ty very much for answering with that great example.

You can use this type of thinking to downplay the importance of math, and it's not completely wrong to do so. However, neither is it absolutely correct. It's not an all or nothing situation.

For one thing, it's not necessary to be a math whiz to be a very good or even great player. But the less math you know, whether explicitly or by being able to make accurate ballpark estimates due to experience, the better you have to be at reading and evaluating your opponents. And no matter how good you are at this, improving your understanding of poker math is more likely to help than hurt.

dj11 · Dec 9, 2012

Learning the poker maths is a faster way to get good. IMHO, maybe 10 times faster. But even the math whizzes will have to apply those math skills and that requires playing hands. So a non math whiz might easily have to put in 10X the hands of a math whiz to get approximately the same benefit.

But I am convinced that you can get good without being a math whiz. It is a matter of osmosis, you just absorb the generalized data, process it, and it shows up in your game.

duggs · Dec 9, 2012

dj11 said:
Learning the poker maths is a faster way to get good. IMHO, maybe 10 times faster. But even the math whizzes will have to apply those math skills and that requires playing hands. So a non math whiz might easily have to put in 10X the hands of a math whiz to get approximately the same benefit.

But I am convinced that you can get good without being a math whiz. It is a matter of osmosis, you just absorb the generalized data, process it, and it shows up in your game.

so you just learn concepts by playing?

dj11 · Dec 9, 2012

duggs said:
so you just learn concepts by playing?

I'd put myself about 1/2 and 1/2, while I could have concentrated early on I started playing poker before the poker maths were developed. Which led to a situation where I have mainly reviewed the maths and figured out how I was already using them.
I have learned new stuff via the math, but for the most part, those new things could be classified as variations on other themes.

Poker Orifice · Dec 9, 2012

dj11 said:
I started playing poker before the poker maths were developed. .

So you started before the pyramids & sheee-ite?

youregoodmate · Dec 9, 2012

dj11 said:
I started playing poker before the poker maths were developed..

Brilliant...

Fanch · Dec 9, 2012

Generally, I try to stick to sound math, such as folding big draws when the value isn't there. However, in certain situations, especially with history on another player, I do go with gut. Best wishes!!

luckytvguy · Nov 21, 2013

vinylspiros said:
I think i speak on behalf of the majority when i say. Im no math wizard. i know how many cards i need to win(outs) and more or less the basic formula to know the percentage of hitting those outs but MATH just AINT my thing. are good math people better at poker than others who just have gut feelins and play a certain style. should i take up a stastistics and math course to get better at my poker game? (lol) seriously: question of thread. are all poker pros mathematical geniuses? or not? can someone that doesnt love math do good at poker in the LONG RUN?
sometimes the numbers dont add up and ur call is a bad call but u feel like making it and ur right too. they will tel you,it was a bad call u got lucky and they may be right. example.what do you do when your gut says "call" but your math says "its an unprofitable longterm call"?

That is a question also bothered me.Now,I asked myself,Are Gus Hansen and some other poker stars good at math?then I answer myself,may be Sklansky is,but Gus ought to be not.

Gut feeling VERSUS MATH genius.

vinylspiros

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