Giving up internet poker!

Why can't I win online? I read and study. I do well in the casino and in the multiple home games I play. What is it about online poker I am not getting? If a person can win in one arena, why can't they do the same in another? Am I relying to heavily on physical tells that I just can compete online? A lot of the plays I make are situational to the person. I like being able to see them, watching them squirm so to speak. I am a feel type player and I just seem to be having a hard time getting a feel for people I can not see! Is online poker more suited for the math player? Sometimes I think so, and if thats the case I have no business playing online. My math is very basic. I love this game so much it hurts me to not play online but I do not want to continue throwing the money I make at the casino away online. I am not really asking for any advice, this is more of a personal rant. I'm always happy to except criticism and advice. If you have something you would like to contribute feel free. As far as my online poker, I think those days are done. Sorry to those who I have dumped money to in the past. LOL. I will continue to do the things I have done and maybe in the future I will pick up something that will help me in my progression as a player. Thats what I love most about this game, there is always something to learn or experience. Whether it be a certain hand or just meet a new person. Oh well, good luck to all of you cause I really do wish nothing but success to those who put in the effort. And for those who read my little rant, thanks! Nothing really to learn b ut I sure do feel a lot better!

change

The definition of insane behavior is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result, change something in your game, I cant say what from the post you made, but definitely you need to change somthing . take a break and see if it helps, read up on bankroll management, that would be the best start imo,:smile:

Maybe you are playing too high online? If you can beat 1/2 live it does not mean you can beat 1/2 online. Try 25NL/50NL where the play is reasonable and you can start to learn the differences between online and love poker.

I've heard D.Negreanu say the same thing, he's a feel player he can just go ha you're bluffing, but online you have to focus on playing the game well.

although im new here, i must confess having the same problem.
i have been playing poker for about 3 years now, perhaps a bit more, yet i do much better in live cash games than i do online.
i seem to lack a certain key element for succeeding online and i have not yet pinpointed it, which like yourself, is needling at me since i too have been losing some money.
anyway, ive been taking it slowly lately, playing on much smaller stakes online and trying to really understand the difference between live and online poker. it seems rather easy for me to get confused from time to time.
with this in mind, i believe that online poker is only for those cutout for it.
if you got it, you got it, if not...well then, theres nothing wrong with live poker.
gl 2 u in the future.

You have to accept there is a learning curve in making that transition and be patient. I might be jumping the gun.. but did you stick to bankroll management principles? That would help even out the swings if thats the cause.

This situation keeps coming up in the forum.

You have to realise that online poker is far more difficult than live poker.

Online 10NL is roughly equal to the average standard of 100NL live.

Online players play a far more solid game than live players of equivalent stakes.

Online players are generally far more experienced players than their live counterparts. The hands are dealt roughly twice as fast. They usually multi-table around 12 games at the same time. They are able to fit in a few hours play most nights.

This translates to a dedicated online player clocking up the equivalent of a decade's live play in less than 12 months.

So you find online harder than live?? that's simply because it is.

Master online and then take that game to the live tables where you can then incorperate reads et.. you will clean up.

Many many pros say that it is relatively easy for an online player to adapt to live play but it is very very hard for most live players to adapt to online play.

Take away the reads and they start to find out how little they actually know about poker.

Read, study, play and hang in there and eventually you should be able to improve.

Best of luck.

This is very true in my experience I didn't start playing live I started online and when I did I lost a lot of money eventually I started to learn and started to win and now I average $12 an hour and after Rake back (poker stars loyalty reward program, not technically rake back but I call because it surmounts to same thing) plus the occasional battle of the planets bonus, and etc it goes up to about $18-20. So I decided one day to start going out on saturday nights to the casino, to play in the weekly holdem tournament. It was a £25 buy in which is like $40. considering I play $6.50 sit and goes online and occasionally dabble in the daily 30k ($11 buyin) I thought I was going to be outclassed by better players. I thought a lot of online players don't pay attention to what's going on and are usually watching tv or have there attention else where (this is generally true in my experience for a lot of online players) I thought live poker was going to be much harder I was in for shock. I was only going for the social aspect as I don't have any friends and don't get out much and here I would have a captive audience who had to listen to me.

they were mostly fish and few of them would ever pose a threat online, that been said there were one or two sharks there who I clearly knew I wouldn't beat if I played heads up for money. they were there just for fun to but they made make a lot online.

definitely have to agree online poker is a much higher standard no exaggeration the standard in a $5 mtt is a lot better then the standard in a $50 live tournament.


on a side note I would recommend playing hyped up tournaments, won't touch 3 figure mtts because I don't think I am at the level to yet, having said that though I have played in the wcoop because it very hyped up and a lot of fish play it. the standard is usually the level of $11 tourney here. same with sunday millions but I don't play that because not bank rolled. target the right areas. play low stakes or hyped up tournaments. you should do alright there.

I have to say, you sound like me.. I am not new to poker been playing since I was a kid and as soon as I turned 21 I have been playing live in casinos.. I'm usually pretty good at the casinos and home games, i usually break even or come out with some cash in my pocket ..

But for some reason or another I just can't seem to build a bankroll in the online industry.. no matter where I play whether it is Full tilt, cake or poker stars same results usually.. I end up being knocked out on turn or river by a donk.. guess it is likely that online has more donks but I have seen my share of them live as well.

so who knows why but online doesn't seem to be working out well for me either, which sux because thats usually what I play here in the recent days..

it's pretty funny i play online poker much better than i do live poker. I like online poker because you can play 5 times as much hands as you do live poker. If you'll like i can help you out on online play because i've had good success online i don't know whether i was lucky or i played well. Just private message me some questions you might have and I'll try my best to help you. I suggest if you are struggling online just play some smaller stakes so you can refine your poker skills.

Everyones persona is equal at an online table. If your niche is your presence then steer from it, im coming to learn that online is much more difficult because skills that id used have become useless.

im not sure its right to say that online poker is harder than live poker, i believe it be up to the particular player.
i agree with what was said here in regard of all those donks and fish striking gold on the turn or river, but that can be avoided if you play right. if you put someone on a draw, u must jam the pot and make it not worth calling. i think live poker is probably easier in low stakes, however when you get to big tourneys and high level cash games, i believe live poker becomes much harder than online poker.

ballboy75 said:

i agree with what was said here in regard of all those donks and fish striking gold on the turn or river, but that can be avoided if you play right. if you put someone on a draw, u must jam the pot and make it not worth calling.

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Problem is, at the bottom-feeder stakes where buy-ins are relatively small and a lot of short-stackers abound, you'll spew a lot of chips that way. The concepts of pot odds and "not worth calling" are lost on most players at those levels. A calling station there won't often flinch at calling all-in on a draw or A-rag, which is why you see them suck out so often. I think the key to avoid losing your shirt to micro-stakes donks is to play tight and don't build big pots until you have a hand -- trying to bluff or make sophisticated moves often is just not as profitable as it is at higher stakes, and you'll get punished a lot. This is true of both live and online poker at low stakes.

I don't get to play live very often, as we don't have legal cardrooms anywhere near where I live. We do travel to Florida at least once a year though so I get in as much live play there as I can. While there a couple weeks ago I played some live $1/$2NL. The first day I did very well -- the deck was hot and hitting me all day. The next day, exact opposite, and to make matters worse I had two calling stations on my immediate left who would not fold ANYTHING it seemed. I'd raise, 3-bet, check-raise, whatever. They just wouldn't get out of the way. One of them finally busted out and left, but the other had about as many chips in front of him as the rest of us put together. We just kept buying in and he kept sucking out. It was pretty incredible. I should have moved to another table when I saw what was happening, but moving meant getting on a list and they already had a crowd waiting, plus I felt like I would eventually exploit him and recoup. Too bad it never happened before I gave up and left. What made it worse was these two guys were buddies and kept criticizing how others at the table played!

I've felt this same way for a while. I don't play live much, but I typically do well when I do, weather in a casino or "home" games. I quote home, because the home games I play in are more casino level usually. I think some have hit the nail on the head with above sentiments that a lot of online players have no problem with the "push and pray" method. Many having no problem going all in with AX, ATC-suited, ATC-connected or ATC-paired; and unfortunately for us tighter players, they tend to catch a lot. I know, I know... "in the long run...", but the long run doesn't help much when you're all in and they long run away from the table with your $$.

A tip from me though - I have recently started getting into limit online and have been doing much better. For one thing, I have found I can play a much higher priced game. I used to play $.10/$.25 or $.25/$.50, and now I play $1/$2 - $3/$6 without breaking a sweat. It's great because yes, some people still Suck Out, but at the same time, I am able to see more streets without having to push my entire stack in the middle to do so. And for some reason, I feel I'm getting better at reading the limit players. I'm able to bully tables more, whereas there is no bully'ing with the push-and-pray'ers.

If you still want to play, try slowing it down and hitting the limit tables for a while and see what happens. Start low, I started with $.10/$.25 and worked my way up as I got a feel for it.

On a side note, since my $.10/$.25 pots were smaller, I'm also earning more FPP with larger pots on the $1/$2 limit tables.

Keep in mind, if you play limit, if it's not worth a raise PF, it's not worth seeing. You will have many MANY limpers PF, you MUST try to get them out of the way with a PF raise. If it's raised in front of you, someone's already done it and you can decide to call from there. But, if you are 1st to act or last to act and it hasn't been raised, raise it up or fold.

I wouldnt say online is harder then live poker i would say its just online ppl dont care as much and they just hit the call button and hope there hand wins or is good, all you do is click not to many ppl think some ppl are just more lucky then others, like durrrr, he dosnt think in all the hands he plays a day he just plays aggressive and hopes to win the pot.and most of the time it just works out for him.

ithinkulose said:

I wouldnt say online is harder then live poker i would say its just online ppl dont care as much and they just hit the call button and hope there hand wins or is good, all you do is click not to many ppl think some ppl are just more lucky then others, like durrrr, he dosnt think in all the hands he plays a day he just plays aggressive and hopes to win the pot.and most of the time it just works out for him.

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LOL, you think durrr doesn't think and just donks his way into millions?

Just because he can be a super-aggressive maniac doesn't mean it isn't calculated. I'm not a huge durrr fan myself, something about his personality just rubs me the wrong way, but I can't deny that he's a seriously talented poker player. It's hardly "luck" as you put it. The man can make sick reads and exploit weakness like nobody's business.

It's easier to gamble online. If you get knocked out of a tournament you just click onto another one. If you're in a brick and mortar casino and get knocked out you have that long drive home. And as far as luck, you need a little no matter where you play- online guys just rely on it more.

Have u tried more than 1 site online. I couldn't make a final table on tilt no matter how good my cards. If i have a flush they have a house. I played Stars for a couple weeks then went back to tilt and made 2 final tables in a week. What does that mean....hell if I know but it worked. Good luck.

MsDonkDonk said:

Have u tried more than 1 site online. I couldn't make a final table on tilt no matter how good my cards. If i have a flush they have a house. I played Stars for a couple weeks then went back to tilt and made 2 final tables in a week. What does that mean....hell if I know but it worked. Good luck.

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While there's technically no reason for this to be true, it might have to do with the overall quality or "texture" of players on a given site. Some are more fish-heavy than others at certain stakes.

I have found that I do better on some sites than others for a given game type. For instance, I was doing pretty well at 50NL on Stars during the first half of this year, but ran really bad at 50NL on FT. When I finally hit a downswing on Stars and lost more than half of my profits, I took a break to read a few more books and reanalyze my play. After awhile, I tentatively tried some tourney play on FT just to change things up, and things took off. I could never do well on tourneys at Stars, but on FT I have a winning ROI, 22% ITM, with one very big MTT win (over an admittedly short period and sample size, but it's still holding after ~3 months and about 150 tourneys/MTSnGs). Since refining my tourney strategy on FT I've tried some SnG's on Stars and have done better than before, so maybe I just needed to make an adjustment to my game. But I still struggle with 50NL on FT -- just trying to clear the Take 2 promotion, I think I'm going to wind up losing more than the $50 I'll get from the bonus (although I did leave up 1 buy-in last night, so maybe that will start turning around -- or maybe it's just variance teasing me again). So now when I'm in the mood for 50NL I go back to Stars, and have recovered a significant chunk of my downswing losses there. Don't know why I struggle so with the exact same game and limits on FT, unless it's just poor table selection and/or overall quality of players (whether better or worse, I'm not sure, but there sure seems to be more luckboxes on FT).

So yeah, sometimes you just need to a play 2-3 different sites. I have accounts at 4-5 sites, but play primarily on Stars and FT, at the games I do best at on each. The other sites I mainly keep for special events, private freerolls, etc.

dmorris68 said:

While there's technically no reason for this to be true, it might have to do with the overall quality or "texture" of players on a given site. Some are more fish-heavy than others at certain stakes.

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I think FT is tougher that stars too.

I think the reason is that FT and Stars are probably the biggest two poker sites.

However FT offers rakeback and PS dosent.

People who use rakeback tend to be better players as they are obviously taking their game more seriously, that's why they have elected to get a RB account.

This pushes more of the decent players into FT.

There are still tonns of fish, but I think the RB on FT and lack of RB on PS effects the type of players in the player pool.

I thihnk the key to online poker is a heavy dose of patience and be sure to play in a stakes that is super comfortable to you starting off so there is no real pressure about your bank roll management and such until you get in the swing of things and then yo never know ...online differfent is a world different then what i like to all face to face and online there are tells to you just have to figure out how to read them correctly

I am at the moment playing exclusively online.
I intend to build up a bankroll there and solidify my game then start playing live hopefully 6 months or a year, when Ihave improved.
I played briefly live a few months ago but was too inexperienced then and lost money. I am playing the $2-$12 MTTs at the moment. I can't really afford to play live right now as live tournaments rarely cost less than $50 a time.

Stu_Ungar said:

However FT offers rakeback and PS dosent.

People who use rakeback tend to be better players as they are obviously taking their game more seriously, that's why they have elected to get a RB account.

This pushes more of the decent players into FT.

There are still tonns of fish, but I think the RB on FT and lack of RB on PS effects the type of players in the player pool.

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Interesting idea, I hadn't considered that. However my experience tends to be the opposite, i.e. I get called down and sucked out on a lot more on FT, or so it seems to me. Another factor I think is short stackers, which I avoid completely on Stars with their 50BB-min tables. The closest thing on FT is their deep 200BB tables, but they still allow players to buy-in light, and there aren't very many of these tables to choose from. I realize there is a strategy for dealing with SSers, but they seriously put me on tilt so I tend to try and avoid them.

Also, regarding RB, how many good online players first came to online play with knowledge of RB? I think the vast majority of internet players, even those that become very good, started with probably little knowledge of RB unless they were already an established live player who ran in the poker circles and knew what RB was beforehand. I knew a bit about poker, but knew nothing of RB at the time. I did some brief research into online poker (not realizing at the time what RB was) and in finding reviews or forums claiming site X to be great, I'd blindly use their conveniently provided affiliate link to sign up... not realizing that doing so would pretty much forever exclude me from RB. In hindsight I would have signed up under a RB deal, of course. My point being, while I'm not a "great" player now by any means, I'm certainly no fish either, and I would think a lot of the better players are in the same boat as me regarding RB.

This is going off topic so I should probably ask in another thread, but I've heard of very little if any success in getting RB applied after the fact to an affiliate signup. My question is, how long does the affiliate get kickbacks for your signup? Is it forever (as long as you play there), or a set period of time, or what?

dmorris68 said:

Also, regarding RB, how many good online players first came to online play with knowledge of RB? I think the vast majority of internet players, even those that become very good, started with probably little knowledge of RB unless they were already an established live player who ran in the poker circles and knew what RB was beforehand. I knew a bit about poker, but knew nothing of RB at the time. I did some brief research into online poker (not realizing at the time what RB was) and in finding reviews or forums claiming site X to be great, I'd blindly use their conveniently provided affiliate link to sign up... not realizing that doing so would pretty much forever exclude me from RB. In hindsight I would have signed up under a RB deal, of course. My point being, while I'm not a "great" player now by any means, I'm certainly no fish either, and I would think a lot of the better players are in the same boat as me regarding RB.

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I'm assuming that most people choose RB for their second account (as they did not know about it for their first).

They cannot use PS as they don't offer RB (or already have a PS account) and therefore FT is the logical choice for your first RB account.

PLAY MORE LIVE GAMES!!!

When your online game goes down the tubes...transition over to live play. Or just take a week off... Good luck in the future!

online

Well I understand how you feel because Ive felt the same way time to time but maybe if you take your time and search the right tables and wait for the fish who are just gambling instead of playing real poker you would get better results. You have to be very selective where you play and what you play online. So don't give up yet and try being very selective in your table selection and tournaments you pick to play and see if that doesnt help