Freeroll culture has hurt poker....

A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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I have formed this view in the last say 5 yrs that we've collectively sold the dream of being a pro/profitable as a player early in your career way, WAY too much to the public. Here is why:

1) It's much MUCH less likely to happen in 2015 as it was in 2005...there chances of picking up the game and being able to support yourself as an adult living independently within say 24 months is very remote in 1st world contexts.

2) We shouldn't define "success" in poker as being profitable or a pro. Poker is a game and an hobby, and if you enjoy it responsibly and draw joy from it, than you are successful as a player, period. At the same time it is intellectual exercise and helps the mind develop and at the least stay better longer into our life.

3) It's important for beginners to actually DEPOSIT A DECENT amount of money generally for us to maintain this game. The poker world needs net depositors period to survive. Why is it a lot of new players are so afraid/reluctant to deposit say 200-500 dollar in their first 24 months?

THIS IS A HOBBY, and there are costs related to all/most hobbies.

5) We need to stop selling poker as a moneymaking venture period bc when we do we look like hucksters and and liars to lay people. Poker is a game, a gambling game where the net profit/loss is a loss for all players based on rake. Stop talking about how people are supporting themselves on poker; it is very very few mainly younger people and many of them would be better of getting into their careers and not opening multi yr holes on their CVs.

I am sorry, but someone needed to say it...
 
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chloebrand

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If that is your belief, that you can not support yourself doing something that you love, you are probably right. I personally believe, that I can, and have been doing so, for the last couple of years.

I'm sorry, but I had to reply...
 
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nygmen2007

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I think that defining success in terms of poker if you can pay bills and live then you can make it. freerolls give a chance for someone to not have to grind with theri own money. These million dollar freeroll satellites gives someone a chance... I think that the freerolls have helped poker because it gives it more popularity for the everyday player and it could make its return toi the United States with pokerstars and full tilt... The colussus gave everyday amatures and people to play for a small buy in to earn life changing money...
 
Kavaleits

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Nice to read the good opinion

I give to you one big +
Because your opinion is very good poker players need to deposit, it may also be at least 10 or 20 $, but any poker room must also be free tournaments at least, not to mention other shares from poker site.

P.s :cool: But i think that in the world are very much bad poker players, which are maybe losing some money, because they dont know how to play poker.:D :D
 
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fordman427

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I agree if someone wants to earn a good living from poker they need to deposit not rely on freerolls
 
BiliousBetil

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1) It's much MUCH less likely to happen in 2015 as it was in 2005...there chances of picking up the game and being able to support yourself as an adult living independently within say 24 months is very remote in 1st world contexts.

Very true. One of the top online players who is still around compared the crest of the poker boom to the gold rush because there was lots of loose money floating around. Also, the game online game was structured to favor the mass tabling player.


3) It's important for beginners to actually DEPOSIT A DECENT amount of money generally for us to maintain this game.

As a former avid golfer, I can tell you that I spent more every single month on green fees than I have deposited in total over several years of online poker.

Cheers!
 
jayrock334

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I do not think beginner players depositing a recreational 50 or 100 bucks maintains the game
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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If that is your belief, that you can not support yourself doing something that you love, you are probably right. I personally believe, that I can, and have been doing so, for the last couple of years.

I'm sorry, but I had to reply...


That's nice, and I never said no one can support themselves playing poker. Perhaps you need to reread what was actually posted?

Honestly, I could probably support myself playing 1/2 in LA or Fl....but who knows really. That is a completely different matter than thinking that is something many new players should aspire to that or that it is realistic for a new player to think they'll be there online in a yr or 2.

I think that defining success in terms of poker if you can pay bills and live then you can make it. Freerolls give a chance for someone to not have to grind with theri own money. These million dollar freeroll satellites gives someone a chance... I think that the freerolls have helped poker because it gives it more popularity for the everyday player and it could make its return toi the United States with pokerstars and full tilt... The colussus gave everyday amatures and people to play for a small buy in to earn life changing money...


The "every day players" need to be depositing, for the most part, in order for the poker ecosystem/economy to maintain its liquidity. New players shouldn't EXPECT to build a roll and skills from freerolls alone. We need to tell people over and over again that depositing is a normal and healthy part of starting out in poker and learning the game. This isn't only bc it helps poker, but bc in fact that is reality and many people are hamstrung by this insane culture of being completely against depositing.

i downvote this post lol

Sweet, rock on.

I give to you one big +
Because your opinion is very good poker players need to deposit, it may also be at least 10 or 20 $, but any poker room must also be free tournaments at least, not to mention other shares from poker site.

P.s :cool: But i think that in the world are very much bad poker players, which are maybe losing some money, because they dont know how to play poker.:D :D

Sure, these is no shame in losing a little playing poker if you enjoy it as a hobby. How much do people spend on going to the movies in a yr these days, 300-500 bucks or something if they have a GF/BF loved ones they take?

I don't see how depositing that much disposable income a yr to learn/play poker is somehow a badge of shame in the community now...you aren't a fish, you are a beginning poker player and the expectation should be you lose a good bit learning the game.

I agree if someone wants to earn a good living from poker they need to deposit not rely on freerolls

Sure, while anything is possible, it's definitely smart for people to deposit a modest amount of money and play micros to learn the game.

Very true. One of the top online players who is still around compared the crest of the poker boom to the gold rush because there was lots of loose money floating around. Also, the game online game was structured to favor the mass tabling player.




As a former avid golfer, I can tell you that I spent more every single month on green fees than I have deposited in total over several years of online poker.

Cheers!


Absolutely, you can't take stories about people depositing once in 2004 and running that up to 30k in a yr and extrapolate a thing about 2015 poker.

I was there in the boom, and we are talking about 2 different things to be honest. I made 5 digits live in the first 10 months playing live just playing like a total rock with 2-3 moves on the weekends.

I do not think beginner players depositing a recreational 50 or 100 bucks maintains the game

No, but beginning players depositing 250-500 dollars in their first yr or 18/24 months of play would help maintain the game and create a healthier ecosystem and game overall. No one "thing" keeps the structure healthy without other phenomena, but new players depositing is huge for poker, and I would be shocked if you are actually suggesting it isn't.
 
LD1977

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1) Being break even/profitable from the start is actually trivial. There is absolutely no need to lose with some basic strategy (BRM/promotions/bonuses eliminate risk for anyone with average intelligence).
2) Being able to support yourself exclusively from poker is definitely not easy, however it is doable eventually. Two years starting as total beginner is pretty hard though.
3) I think completely new players should start from the bottom (freerolls/micros), depositing immediately skips important lessons about patience IMO. However, if one can afford to pay for quicker experience gathering to save time, why not?

Points about hobby/career are well made.

People who deposit immediately and people who bother to go and register on a forum are almost completely separate groups so meh :D
 
VinnyStrat

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Free Rolls are an entry level into Poker. My guess is that on average Free Rolls that have cash payouts make money for the poker site via re-buys or new members or they would quit hosting them. From this aspect, it covers the "Cost" of the hobby.

Some of the players that play Only Free Rolls will move on to become more frequent Hobbyist players and deposit cash to play. Some will move on and look for another hobby. Some may just play Free Rolls forever.

I don't see how it is that Free Rolls have "Hurt" poker.
 
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dsk1231

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I have formed this view in the last say 5 yrs that we've collectively sold the dream of being a pro/profitable as a player early in your career way, WAY too much to the public. Here is why:

1) It's much MUCH less likely to happen in 2015 as it was in 2005...there chances of picking up the game and being able to support yourself as an adult living independently within say 24 months is very remote in 1st world contexts.

2) We shouldn't define "success" in poker as being profitable or a pro. Poker is a game and an hobby, and if you enjoy it responsibly and draw joy from it, than you are successful as a player, period. At the same time it is intellectual exercise and helps the mind develop and at the least stay better longer into our life.

3) It's important for beginners to actually DEPOSIT A DECENT amount of money generally for us to maintain this game. The poker world needs net depositors period to survive. Why is it a lot of new players are so afraid/reluctant to deposit say 200-500 dollar in their first 24 months?

THIS IS A HOBBY, and there are costs related to all/most hobbies.

5) We need to stop selling poker as a moneymaking venture period bc when we do we look like hucksters and and liars to lay people. Poker is a game, a gambling game where the net profit/loss is a loss for all players based on rake. Stop talking about how people are supporting themselves on poker; it is very very few mainly younger people and many of them would be better of getting into their careers and not opening multi yr holes on their CVs.

I am sorry, but someone needed to say it...

I agree on a personal level. I've been playing for nearly 10 years and have never had any kind of expectation like that. I thouroughly just enjoy playing it. As far as it being sold as a dream. I see that as a good thing. Keeps more people playing it. As an American living in a post black friday world I'll take what I can get.
 
A2345Razz

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Free Rolls are an entry level into Poker. My guess is that on average Free Rolls that have cash payouts make money for the poker site via re-buys or new members or they would quit hosting them. From this aspect, it covers the "Cost" of the hobby.

Some of the players that play Only Free Rolls will move on to become more frequent Hobbyist players and deposit cash to play. Some will move on and look for another hobby. Some may just play Free Rolls forever.

I don't see how it is that Free Rolls have "Hurt" poker.

Who said freerolls "hurt" poker?

I am playing a CC free roll right now as a matter of fact.

Again, you might need to reread the OP. Free rolls of and by themselves are fine marketing and social networking tools to promote the game or loyalty. A CULTURE WHERE DEPOSITING is seen as the exception or in some way a loss to a beginning player....even repeated deposits....is something entirely different.
 
fubarcdn

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The dream is exactly what brings in new players that do deposit.
Same dream that sends thousands of kids to hockey and baseball and gymnastics and arts camp and wrestling school.
As far as depositing goes it has nothing to do with the viability of the online game. Poker rooms make $0000 from someone depositing. The revenue comes from rake so it is the same if someone starts their roll from a free roll as if someone makes a huge deposit. It is a percentage game and according to my stats the people that started with freerolls or a min deposit have generated more revenue for the operators of the sites than steady depositors since the implosion of 2003.
That is all I have to say about this.
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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As far as depositing goes it has nothing to do with the viability of the online game.

images


Also, I did wresting and football for many yrs and never once did I realistically think or believe I was going to derive a monetary benefit from it.


Also, you can dream, but to say its realistic to become a self sufficient pro in X months is ridiculous in 2015. We need to sell the game itself bc the reality is less and less and less people are going to able to make a good living (1st world) off of online poker as edges shrink. You can spin it any way you want, but if the only thing you have to sell poker with is "the dream" than poker is completely doomed.
 
fubarcdn

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Of course you are realistic and can separate your expectations from your capabilities but I can almost guarantee that you know at least one person that has spent many thousand dollars on hockey or baseball or football or martial arts or music lessons for their kids convinced they will make it and online or live poker is no different.
Most people that play have a dream of making it big for whatever reason and as far as I am concerned as soon as people that play this game online stop dreaming then the rapid decline will happen.

As a disclosure I have to disclose that I am currently shorted at $37 on 10,000 or so shares of the holding company of poker stars and Full Tilt but that could be a bluff too. It may pay off if and when the truth comes out.
 
LD1977

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As far as depositing goes it has nothing to do with the viability of the online game.

images


Also, I did wresting and football for many yrs and never once did I realistically think or believe I was going to derive a monetary benefit from it.


Also, you can dream, but to say its realistic to become a self sufficient pro in X months is ridiculous in 2015. We need to sell the game itself bc the reality is less and less and less people are going to able to make a good living (1st world) off of online poker as edges shrink. You can spin it any way you want, but if the only thing you have to sell poker with is "the dream" than poker is completely doomed.

Culture of poker forums have virtually no impact on people depositing so this thread is pretty pointless.

Much bigger issue is that the sites are taking insane amount of money from players through rake and are destroying the players' bankrolls too quickly. There is plenty of space for rake reduction in their margins but greed is greed.
 
fubarcdn

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Culture of poker forums have virtually no impact on people depositing so this thread is pretty pointless.

Much bigger issue is that the sites are taking insane amount of money from players through rake and are destroying the players' bankrolls too quickly. There is plenty of space for rake reduction in their margins but greed is greed.

I have to agree here that high rakes are another problem. It was a long time ago but I calculated at the time that on a table of ten with a min entry that it took one and a half hours before the rake was higher than all the min buyins combined. I don't think things have changed much and the sites still cater to the high rollers with big perks and lower profit margins.
It is worse than playing slots at the casino for a hobby, which I also do not recommend. :)
 
A2345Razz

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A lot of interesting arguments in the thread, of course most are not in direct relation to the OP, but it's definitely interesting.


Also, is no one else shocked someone just said deposits aren't important for the maintenance of a healthy poker economy?

That's a fairly ludicrous assertion.

No one is arguing against people dreaming, but I am arguing that that arguement is less and less and less appealing in the face of reality 10 yrs post boom and that selling PRIMARILY the idea that it is realistic to become a pro in short order is something that is a huge net negative on the public's image of poker.


Also, high rakes and silly formats/pay out schedules are also bad for the game....again, no one here is arguing against those points as best I can surmise.
 
fubarcdn

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What does the public's image have to do with anything?
 
StuffBarnaul

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In poker you really can win, but only if you have practice and skill. Most of people can not win because they are very lazy and don't want to study and hope only for luck. Every poker player can became millionaire, but not everyone became.
Someone make millions in business, someone in poker, that is the same, but how many miilionaries in our world?
 
almanik

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100%! First of all poker is a hobby. Of cause, it can help you to take some little money. But like hobby this game can give people much more than a way to earn on living.
 
LD1977

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Obviously deposits are important, where would the money originally come from? Air?

My position is, if deposits get depleted (mainly through rake, which is normally by far the highest "win rate" on any table) without giving players a realistic chance they will give up and not return. Newbies don't really pay attention to cost of rake but they still feel its bite.

Even entertainment has "value for money spent" coefficient and poker's is pretty low compared to MMORPGs and such where you can have a lot of fun relatively cheaply and not feel like a loser when you get fleeced.

When things slow down there are 2 strategies that poker sites can employ:
1) reduce rake and stimulate economy like this (this is similar to government reducing taxes to jump start economy)
2) go into "full fleece" mode and just squeeze out what they can

Amaya (PokerStars) went into 2) but had to back down temporarily, still promotions are now total garbage and they are looking for ways to continue increasing their profits (= squeezing the players dry any way possible).

Eventually best hope for players/poker economy is for a new competitor to emerge with a realistic business model (= act like any other normal business and accept first few years will not be instantly profitable and will need investment into market share development) and challenge them.
 
rifflemao

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A CULTURE WHERE DEPOSITING is seen as the exception or in some way a loss to a beginning player....even repeated deposits....is something entirely different.

I'm not a fan of redepositing, but that came after going around $500 in the red by getting into a cycle of bad brm + fishy play. I got some entertainment value from it I guess, but it was mostly tuition. Pain is a great teacher lol.

I think making a reasonable initial deposit (instead of several unreasonably small ones) only makes sense for a player. If it helps the poker economy too, then that's great.
 
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