FR 25NL KK hand - thoughts?

I played this absolutely terrible. Didn't see villain very active before the hand.


pokerstars Game #18677100321: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/07/08 - 16:27:45 (ET)
Table 'Dubhe V' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: AAGAMBLER ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 3: kubajjk ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 4: 101.kg ($5 in chips)
Seat 5: gatorsfan ($8.75 in chips)
Seat 6: txiago ($35.75 in chips)
Seat 7: RGSMit ($34.80 in chips)
Seat 8: GO_GO_GONE ($5.15 in chips)
Seat 9: CuCbKu ($5.45 in chips)
almightyjean will be allowed to play after the button
kubajjk: posts small blind $0.10
101.kg: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to txiago [Kh Ks]
gatorsfan: folds
txiago: raises $0.75 to $1
RGSMit: raises $2.50 to $3.50
GO_GO_GONE: folds
CuCbKu: folds
AAGAMBLER: folds
kubajjk: folds
101.kg: folds
txiago: calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [8d Td 4d]
txiago: checks
RGSMit: bets $4.90
txiago: raises $6.60 to $11.50
RGSMit: raises $19.80 to $31.30 and is all-in
txiago: folds
Uncalled bet ($19.80) returned to RGSMit
RGSMit collected $28.85 from pot
RGSMit: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $30.35 | Rake $1.50
Board [8d Td 4d]
Seat 1: AAGAMBLER (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: kubajjk (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: 101.kg (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: gatorsfan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: txiago folded on the Flop
Seat 7: RGSMit collected ($28.85)
Seat 8: GO_GO_GONE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: CuCbKu folded before Flop (didn't bet)



This is 25NL, 3 betting is pretty much always AK/JJ+. I think 4betting preflop scares away hands that I have beat and commits me more when he has AA, though I am OOP. I wasn't sure what to do post flop, decided to c/r small to be able to fold if he jams, which he did, insta I might add. I don't think he does this without AA and the flush draw. What did I do wrong, should I have called the push, 4bet pre, lead into him (sounds pretty dumb), flat call and c/r turn all in on safe card, flat and c/f to any card...? Lots of options, not too thrilled by any IMO...

OK since I live at these stakes here's what I have to offer. First - yes at 25nl most 3bets preflop is AQ, AK or JJ and better, agreed. So lets say that's his range. You're CRUSHING it since there's only 1 hand out of 6 (with the KK as a tie) that you're behind at all. This is a 4bet push preflop. But you call. Fair enough.

NASTY flop. But his range of JJ and QQ still are over pairs. Your raise amount at the flop was weird, but whatever he had, he definitely believed in it. He might have had something like JJ or QQ with one of the queens a diamond. AA is still a possibility.

Anyways - yes preflop push, at least that's what I think. This flop is real nasty you've committed about $15 with your raise. It's another $16 to call.

With the given range above, AQo, AQs, AKs, AKo, JJ-AA you're 76-24 equity in your favor at the flop. It's a call.

Thanks for the advice Ice. I think pushing preflop is way too big of an overbet to be profitable. Let's make two assumptions here, which may or may not be right, to calculate my EV:


1. His 3 betting range is as tight as AK/JJ+. So 8 different combinations of AK, 6 of JJ, 6 of QQ, 6 of AA (lets ignore the single time he has KK).

2. He'll only call a push with AA and KK. Only big loose fish will call a 4 bet push with less than that in this spot given the situation. So, he'll call 6/26 times, or approximately 23% of the time.


Now, if I'm seeing right, we're risking $33.80 (he was shorter than me, therefore his stack - my original raise) to win $4.85 (my original raise + his 3 bet + blinds). We are then winning $4.85 on the hand 77% of the time and are 4 to 1 dogs the other 23%. An all in pot between us two is somewhere very near 70$, where my equity is approximately 18%, or $12.60. We lose $33.80 - $12.60 = $21.20 in this case.

So, lets finally calculate our EV:

When he folds: $4.85 * 0.77 = $3.73
When he calls: -$21.20 * 0.23 = -$4.88

Overall: $3.73 - $4.88 = -$1.15

I probably made some mistake somewhere in the middle that compromises the result, in which case please alert me to it.

If I don't suck at math problems, which you shouldn't too much, this tells us that, if all assumptions are correct, we are losing money when we do this 4 bet. Of course, if you throw in AQ or TT in his 3 bet range, or if he's calling with AK or QQ as well, it's a slightly better move, but I think there are more profitable ways of playing this hand. If I 4 bet isn't it better to make it something like $9.50-$11? That may make him flat call or induce a shove with a couple hands you have beat. On another topic it sounds very nitty to fold KK preflop, but if he 5 bets when you make that kind of 4 bet is there anyway you can do it? I mean, noone pushes less than AA for 125+ BBs, right? Though you are getting like 2-1 on the call...


Back to what happened, having decided to flat the 3 bet, I agree I played the flop terrible. After the stupid sized raise I should have put in the rest of my stack. Also, thoughts on calling the flop and leading or c/r on non diamond turn? Damn, poker's hard...

you're both sitting on 140 big blinds, so i wouldn't push preflop. Maybe 4bet, though. Postflop I think you need to stack here. If he's got AA or AdKd it's a cooler, but I do see JJ,QQ play this exactly the same way, so you're ahead of his range.