FOLD KK Preflop? HOW?

ok so heres the deal my game is getting better and better and better in every aspect im talking about being able to play people not even mattering what cards i have because i can put people on a hand so well even online..

now with that said there is one hand that gets me in the most trouble and cost me the most money and that is KK and its never post flop play where i lose the money.

its usually getting it all in preflop and ALWAYS against AA in the past 3 days i have lost about 600 dollars from this hand alone...

3 times i have had KK go against AA and all 3 times getting it in preflop.

how can i possibly fold the second nuts preflop?

so tell me how to fold KK preflop either in position or out of position..

there is only a few different ways the action can go preflop so do your best to explain to me how i can stop losing money in this situation

no

i guess i just chalk it up to variance and keep on keepin on..


i just really want it to be a hole in my game im not seeing so i can fix it and save monies....

its pretty difficult so i dont blame u here, but folding kk in nine handed, only when this happens, raise, reraise and someone going all in and someone callin... fold KK. but as this doesnt happens a los its impossible, figure the odds of AA vs KK in a hand an ull see this doesnt happens to often

It's tough to get away from KK preflop, barring some psychic soul-read of your opponent.

Therefore, you need to be at a limit where you can withstand the loss on the relatively few times you will lose.

Your opponent will have AA a tiny percent of the times. Tough cooler to run into, but it won't happen much.

KK versus say, A9o will lose about 28% of the time. I'd bet quite a chunk of my bankroll as a 72/28 favorite but wouldn't risk my entire bankroll even as a 95/5 favorite.

Play within your bankroll and you'll be able to profit from your all-in's with KK.

rivertapped said:

It's tough to get away from KK preflop, barring some psychic soul-read of your opponent.

Therefore, you need to be at a limit where you can withstand the loss on the relatively few times you will lose.

Your opponent will have AA a tiny percent of the times. Tough cooler to run into, but it won't happen much.

KK versus say, A9o will lose about 28% of the time. I'd bet quite a chunk of my bankroll as a 72/28 favorite but wouldn't risk my entire bankroll even as a 95/5 favorite.

Play within your bankroll and you'll be able to profit from your all-in's with KK.

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That being said, I also read the following sage advice somewhere:

The first all-in raiser may have aces, the second does.

I fold KK preflop two times........NEVER and EVER. Look at the number of hands your opponent can shove with. most players it includes AA KK QQ JJ and AK possibly AQ at the minimum.many players have a much larger range than this you have them all dominated except AA (leaving out KK for obv reasons)

Once in Las Vegas, I ran KK into AA three times in about 12 hours. Each time, raises were met by re-raises, and I just intutitively knew that I was up against pocket rockets. However, being unfamiliar with the players and not knowing if they were total donks or not, I called each time ... and lost each time. No sucking out for this guy, I guess ...

If you're playing good players and someone continues to re-raise pre-flop against your Cowboys, you'd better think about folding, tough as it may be. It takes a really good player to make the read and make the big fold. But that's why we love this game, right?

I've never folded KK preflop. Ever. I've never folded QQ preflop 100 big blinds deep. I make plenty of money. There are bigger holes in your game than folding kings preflop.

I've bluffed people into folding KK when I had nothing but used the ace on the table to my advantage.

c9h13no3 said:

I've never folded KK preflop. Ever. I've never folded QQ preflop 100 big blinds deep. I make plenty of money. There are bigger holes in your game than folding kings preflop.

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Most definitely. I would spend more time worrying about why you're so attached to a hand like AK or why you can't fold your straight when an obvious flush comes out.

lightning36 said:

Once in Las Vegas, I ran KK into AA three times in about 12 hours. Each time, raises were met by re-raises, and I just intutitively knew that I was up against pocket rockets. However, being unfamiliar with the players and not knowing if they were total donks or not, I called each time ... and lost each time. No sucking out for this guy, I guess ...

If you're playing good players and someone continues to re-raise pre-flop against your Cowboys, you'd better think about folding, tough as it may be. It takes a really good player to make the read and make the big fold. But that's why we love this game, right?

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You gotta listen to your guts when you get up against an aggressive re-raise. I "knew" I had KK against someone's AA in a tourney, but pushed all-in anyway, just knowing it was the wrong move to make then and there. Sure enough, I was right, and out early. Amazing that AA holds up so often against another high pocket pair, but any two little unsuited pieces of nothing can bust them wide open. LOL

I am working on making myself listen to that smart little inner voice now. When I can make myself do that, I usually am better off than when I don't listen.

Good luck.

lightning36 said:

If you're playing good players and someone continues to re-raise pre-flop against your Cowboys, you'd better think about folding, tough as it may be. It takes a really good player to make the read and make the big fold. But that's why we love this game, right?

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Actually, a good player will see that you won't even call a shove with kings and exploit the hell out of this. He may be correct to shove suited connectors just because they get folds enough to be profitable and they have enough equity against AA the times you call.

MaverickUK said:

I've bluffed people into folding KK when I had nothing but used the ace on the table to my advantage.

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re-read the title, key word PREFLOP.

dsvw56 said:

no

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QFT

Folding KK PF when you're less than 200bb deep is a serious leak. With bubble situations in a satellite tournament being the ONLY exception.

zach, he wouldn't know what I was folding. For all he'd know, I was trying to steal with the hammer.

lightning36 said:

zach, he wouldn't know what I was folding. For all he'd know, I was trying to steal with the hammer.

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He would if you ONLY stack with AA. Pretty easy to figure out if every time you stack PF, you have aces, that you have to be folding everything else to enough aggression.

Why would you ever fold KK preflop? One time, I shoved QQ preflop and the other guy thought for a while and then folded KK face-up. He was convinced I had Aces. Good fold sir, good fold.
Seriously, you get it in with Kings and that's that. On the Poker After Dark cash game, Allen Cunningham felted KK vs. AA a cool $160,000 (4 buy-ins) deep.

Over the last 180,000 hands, I've had KK vs. AA 20 times and AA vs. KK 9 times. That doesn't mean I'm gonna start folding Kings. Even the thought of a play like that gives me the creeps.

What I have started to do in cash games with KK is when I am re-raised a significant amount I just call. No getting it all in pre-flop.. That way if an Ace hits on the flop I can get away from the hand and still have money left over.

If the Ace doesn't hit, and its all under cards, well too bad for me, I'm losing all my chippies.

dufferdevon said:

What I have started to do in cash games with KK is when I am re-raised a significant amount I just call. No getting it all in pre-flop.. That way if an Ace hits on the flop I can get away from the hand and still have money left over.

If the Ace doesn't hit, and its all under cards, well too bad for me, I'm losing all my chippies.

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This makes no sense. So if you're up against AK, you'll let them see a flop instead of getting as much money in as you can as a heavy favorite, while against AA you'll still lose your stack (aside from the rare time they hit their set). The one minor advantage from your play is that you may felt hands like JJ that are also an overpair and could have gotten away preflop.

c9h13no3 said:

There are bigger holes in your game than folding kings preflop.

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^ this.

Phil Gordon has always argued that the fourth raise means aces, and I seem to remember a discussion on here a little while back about situations where it was n longer worth stacking off pre-flop with them.

These are rare circumstances though, and like everything else in poker, you don't want to be applying them as hard and fast rules. As Zach points out, folding kings every single time someone four-bets you could turn out to be an even bigger leak than folding than calling every single time and losing.

lightning36 said:

zach, he wouldn't know what I was folding. For all he'd know, I was trying to steal with the hammer.

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Unless you folded them face up. Then he would have to give you respect on later hands because it is such a big lay down and you had his hand figured right on.

I fold KK all the time after this

pokerstars Game #16142361447: Tournament #80995613, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/03/21 - 14:24:19 (ET)
Table '80995613 348' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: newffie75 (6740 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 2: denmare (5625 in chips)
Seat 3: Nosterafu (3375 in chips)
Seat 4: AGA33 (5410 in chips)
Seat 5: DutchElms (2865 in chips)
Seat 6: myubudog (6405 in chips)
Seat 7: Rob_Paulsen (10555 in chips)
Seat 8: txiago (5395 in chips)
Seat 9: Ameloot69 (7510 in chips)
Ameloot69: posts small blind 100
newffie75: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to txiago [Ks Kc]
denmare: folds
Nosterafu: folds
AGA33: folds
DutchElms: folds
myubudog: folds
Rob_Paulsen: raises 10355 to 10555 and is all-in
txiago: calls 5395 and is all-in
Ameloot69: folds
newffie75: folds
*** FLOP *** [8h 7d Tc]
txiago said, "9"
*** TURN *** [8h 7d Tc] 9♠
*** RIVER *** [8h 7d Tc 9s] 4♣
txiago said, "gg"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Rob_Paulsen: shows [2c 6h] (a straight, Six to Ten)
txiago: shows [Ks Kc] (a pair of Kings)
Rob_Paulsen collected 11090 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11090 | Rake 0
Board [8h 7d Tc 9s 4c]
Seat 1: newffie75 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: denmare folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Nosterafu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: AGA33 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: DutchElms folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: myubudog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Rob_Paulsen showed [2c 6h] and won (11090) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 8: txiago (button) showed [Ks Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: Ameloot69 (small blind) folded before Flop

The reason that the 2-5 suited and unsuited beat AA more often in mathmatical there are more outs. KK has 2 outs 2-5 suited has many more outs and therefore will beat the monster pairs more often than a one lower pair. I would rather be up against AA with KQ suited than KK because I have more outs.

Unless you've been playin with the guy for many years and you got a tell on him that he acts when he has bullets, almost impossible to get away from.

The only way I can see someone doing that would be if they just want to make it ITM and not take any risk.