Fold to a min-raise--ever okay?

So me and a friend had a disagreement about whether it is ever okay to fold to a min raise on the river. I said it was okay-he said it wasn't.
The question arose while we were railing the double deuce with about 56 people left to go. 3 players saw the river, and the first to act bet out (I believe min), 2nd to act minraised, third to act folded, and the original raiser folded. The original better was getting about 10:1 on his money. I said it was a good fold since the minraise is usually a "please pay me you're priced in" style raise. The min raiser showed 44 on a 2 4 8 9 Q rainbow board. I have seen 1 min raise bluff, which happened to be successful in the last year or so.
After the disagreement, while my friend was tabling .02/.05 omaha high, he was minraised on the river, and the villain showed the nuts. At other tables a few seconds later I saw another min raise pre and the villain showed KK after the original raiser folded.
I feel especially in low limit games when u get minraised the villain is trying to get more money but is scared a larger raise will price you out.
On the contrary if you are right just 1 in 10 times (say even with A high), this call is profitable.
So is it okay to fold (getting 10:1) to a minraise?
P.S.-I know my friend will comment on this blog with strong opposition to ever folding gettting 10:1 even thought you're obv beat :laugh:

As usual, I think it depends on the situation. You're using all of your information gleaned thru the streets and previous hands. Generally, I would call with anything decent, but to say it is NEVER a good call is incorrect, IMO....

I'd say a check min-raise on river when u are showing strength is going to be the nutty nuts a huge percentage of the time.

Crying calls

There can be no hard and fast rule here.

We all know that a min-raise will often be a donk value play, but given that this is known, it can also be a bluffing tool.

Study your opponents and read the board/hand according (i.e. did that flush card hit them, or did it just create a bluffing spot in their mind) and you will get a sense of when you should probably fold.

At the end of the day, however, as long as you're not putting a significant slice of your stack in, 10:1 with decent showdown equity is a crying call you'll see top pros make quite often.

It's fine to call that but I always say having pot odds or position is no reason to be stupid.
But for the most part I will call that and for the most part I will lose.

If there is virtually nothing you can beat then yes, example, you're holding A-10 on a board of Ad-10c-5d-Qd-7h...you bet on the river and get min raised...no way should you call here, even with almost having top two...you cannot beat any flush, any set, you cannot beat A-Q and you can't beat K-J...honestly, if a player has got the sack to min raise you on that board you give him credit for making a great bet...I just don't see how you can call since 95% of the time you're beat there.

If you're getting 10-1 you need to be right only ~9% of the time for a call to be correct. Therefor if you can beat a bluff (even if you only hold A high) you should call because everyone bluffs at least 10% of the time right? Also you get to note what your opponent shows down so you'll have more complete information the next time he makes a retarded min bet on the river.

WVHillbilly said:

If you're getting 10-1 you need to be right only ~9% of the time for a call to be correct. Therefor if you can beat a bluff (even if you only hold A high) you should call because everyone bluffs at least 10% of the time right? Also you get to note what your opponent shows down so you'll have more complete information the next time he makes a retarded min bet on the river.

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Pretty much this. And it doesn't matter what his cards were at the actual showdown, people do stupid things from time to time, I would say 90% of the time.

Oh, and I wonder who your friend is

in poker there are never any "always" decisions

I say it's ok to fold to a min raise. Usually it's good poker. I agree that the min raise is almost always a "please call" raise. Now, of course, if you have the nuts, you have to raise back, right? If this is the case, should it be a min re-raise, or should one try to get a little more with the re-raise? Good thread. I'll come back to this one quite a bit to check oppinions.

For me, most of the time a river 3 bet (min or otherwise) looks to be a value bet, highly suggesting villain has a pretty damn nice hand.

I can make those bets as well as respond to those bets. I can fold to them as easily as I can re raise them.

It depends on so many things happening at the table, contest, et al, that qualifying the situation with a fold/no fold answer is absurd.

That said, you should always be aware that it is at least a value bet. So if the agro maniac throws you a min re raise then you should probably figure he knows you know he is an agro maniac, and he is playing for value, whereas if the move is made by a passive player, he could be playing a lesser hand, and sees a bluff in the works.

WVHillbilly said:

everyone bluffs at least 10% of the time right?

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Now I understand why you dislike rush poker. you got your assumptions all wrong...

BelgoSuisse said:

Now I understand why you dislike rush poker. you got your assumptions all wrong...

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You're probably right cause I hate folding.

I normally call a small bet on the river, especially in low money play....it's not so costly to take a chance.

As others have already mentioned, i don't think you can generalize and say that any move in poker is 100% at all times, there are just to many other variables to consider other.

If you are chasing a flush and / or a straight and miss, why bother calling? I think a min-raise on the river is about getting you to add more chips to the pot.

bolda3 said:

So me and a friend had a disagreement about whether it is ever okay to fold to a min raise on the river. I said it was okay-he said it wasn't.
The question arose while we were railing the double deuce with about 56 people left to go. 3 players saw the river, and the first to act bet out (I believe min), 2nd to act minraised, third to act folded, and the original raiser folded. The original better was getting about 10:1 on his money. I said it was a good fold since the minraise is usually a "please pay me you're priced in" style raise. The min raiser showed 44 on a 2 4 8 9 Q rainbow board. I have seen 1 min raise bluff, which happened to be successful in the last year or so.
After the disagreement, while my friend was tabling .02/.05 omaha high, he was minraised on the river, and the villain showed the nuts. At other tables a few seconds later I saw another min raise pre and the villain showed KK after the original raiser folded.
I feel especially in low limit games when u get minraised the villain is trying to get more money but is scared a larger raise will price you out.
On the contrary if you are right just 1 in 10 times (say even with A high), this call is profitable.
So is it okay to fold (getting 10:1) to a minraise?
P.S.-I know my friend will comment on this blog with strong opposition to ever folding gettting 10:1 even thought you're obv beat :laugh:

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Just wanting to get this right.... guy 'min' bet the river & then got 'min-raised' & this was deep in the DoubleDeuce? How big was the pot that the player was min-betting the river on? (< min river bet seems real weird in itself?). Who'd be min-betting the river ffs?? (the 'min-raising' a 'minbet'.. is this the situation here?). Can't say what I'd do cuz I'd never be min-betting the river in the first place???

baudib1 said:

I'd say a check min-raise on river when u are showing strength is going to be the nutty nuts a huge percentage of the time.

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"Typically" in a tournament situation, this ^ is going to be the case for sure.

If you have a big enough stack, you should at least call due to pot odds and to gain information that you could use later on in the tournament.

I would almost always call. Of course I am a calling station, so I might be biased.

Depends on the situation for me -- taking into account the player, the chip stacks, position, cards, etc.

I would have to say yes.. If you know your beat it's always good to fold no matter what size of bet is put out. Why put give away more chips than you have to?

I use the min-raise for a bluff. Obviously not on a river giving that huge pot odds, but I will use it on flop or turn giving good pot odds.

A lot of players think min-raise=monster, and it usually does i think.

Of course you can fold on river to a min-raise if you were crazy bluffing, but anything with showdown equity (A high), you prob have to call.

YES!!!

i personally learned this the hard way

i would be like ... what kinda bet is that, im calling!

but in reality, if ur beat then ur beat ... sure if you have a legit drawing hand (overs, 4 to flush, open ended, etc.), call away or re-raise (altho since donks are more likely to under-bet, i would caution re-raise, since they probably have really good hand and are just afraid to bet you out of the pot)

finally, i have seen good players use this tactic since any bet, even a small one, provides you with valuable info ... it can be a way to play a small pot vs. lesser players ... it can be a way to setup a bluff ... u bet small a few fold, some call, then you bet bigger since u feel you have learned that nobody is strong

it's one of those many things that have come more out of online play and it can be strategic

oh and the value bet/raise on river ... i call most min value bets on river if i have a hand ... i think more to say , hey if u beat me good for you, but dont think u can ever bluff a pot from me with a bet that small

the check-min raise on the river scares me ... but hey think about it ... you put your opponent on some kinda hand but not in the nuts category and you decide you want to execute a reasonable bluff ... maybe you have some extra chips ... check and min raise ... that's what is great about poker ... when u represent top pair you do bet a certain way, when u need or want to represent the nuts ... well pretend like you have them and go with it ... won't alway work naturally, but when it does it can be fun and profitable

How many times do you find yourself in a situation where you are sure your villains are just begging for a reason to not show their cards? I see it fairly often. A min bet/raise is a cheap easy way to provide them a clean exit. Profit and provide a service at the same time.....win/win...