From the floor - live - part deux

detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

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Ok, here is one for those who play arrogantly.

This happened at one of our local casinos downtown.

$1-$3 NLH cash game

Player A is in middle position and shoves AI for aprox $150 preflop. Player B is in the BB and has been arrogant all day. He says call and hasn't even looked at his cards. Board comes. Player B, still without looking, slides his hand to player A and says ' you flip it over, I haven't looked yet'. Player A throws player B's hand into the muck without turning them over.

Sorry player B your hand was called dead, and you have no recourse to the pot.

Now, this would have been a tricky one if player B had actually looked at his hand . First and foremost it is a players sole responsibility to protect their hand. BUT, there is a general ruling clause that says in the case of an accidental mucking of cards, you can retrieve them from the muck if you can 100% verify what they were. Since B didn't look he could not say what they were. Too bad for him, hope he learned a lesson, but that's doubtful.

Also, was this an accidental mucking? That would be a tough call to make.

To top it all off, I would have issued B a warning for his actions to add a kick while he was down.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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OK so both players sound like prize douches here.

Shouldn't Player A be the one more likely to get a warning - or more than a warning?!? Sure, Player A can't do what he did if Player B does the right thing and hangs onto his cards in the first place, so Player B takes some of the blame here. But Player A deliberately mucked another player's hand, to his own advantage. That's hardly action taken in the spirit of a fair game...
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

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That is a valid point but would never stand up, if I was A I would just say I thought he mucked them towards me (which happens when people helicopter muck) and that he was helping the dealer. Crazy thing is if B's cards had landed on A's, then both hands would be dead and the hand would be killed and all chips returned to rightful owners.
 
OzExorcist

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OK - it sounds to me though like you're wanting to punish Player B more for stuff he might have done in the past, rather than what actually happened in this hand... which doesn't feel right to me.
 
detroitjunkie

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OK - it sounds to me though like you're wanting to punish Player B more for stuff he might have done in the past, rather than what actually happened in this hand... which doesn't feel right to me.

Half of all poker rules are anti-collusion and anti-angling. Player B's move falls into both categories here. Remember, this doe not mean B is colluding or angling but just the same the rules exist. Several apply - one person per hand, throwing cards at a players hand, the move could be considered a muck technically to stop angles. So its not to penalize his behavior, but most people who play like arrogant f-heads are colluding and angling so the two usually go hand in hand (not to behavior profile).

I would not be surprised in this situation to see player B say, upon A turning his cards over and seeing that player B lost, "hey those were not my cards, he must have switched them' - Ive seen worse, and the above mentioned rules are to stop this from happening. The fact that his behavior is poor makes it just more fun.
 
teepack

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Player B was an idiot and deserved to lose. He, and he alone, is responsible for his cards.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

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Word on the street (from my buddy who is a floor at Harrahs in Vegas who asked other floors in town) said in this situation they would have been forced to rule as the floor did here due to how the dealer handled the situation, but then they would kick BOTH players out of the room.
 
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