From The Floor - Live

detroitjunkie

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Hey all, I wanted to start a thread, or a blog, or a something here that talks about live play and the rules and floor calls that govern it. I wasn't sure where to put it and this seemed like the most logical place I guess.

I currently manage 2 poker rooms in Michigan, and deal poker at the wsop every summer. I have been involved in poker for many years now and consider myself a rules guru (well officially part of a rules guru team, which consists of several floor managers in Michigan, and floors and dealers in Vegas).

This thread should be about questions you may have regarding a floor call, stories about calls and play, or anything about how a card room operates.

I will get us started with two issues.

1. There is always major issues and fights about how to rule on a pre-exposed hand. I have seen it dealt with several different ways...our card room (and most card rooms in Michigan) rule it the worst way in cash games.
*What we do (unfortunately - I am lobbying to change) in a cash game for a per-exposed hand with action pending, is declare the hand dead and all chips into the pot are forfeited. This is because of the rampant collusion that you find in non-casino (and sometimes in the casino) poker rooms. In tournaments, the hand is declared passive, player can only call, check, or fold.
*Others will declare passive hand in both cash and tourney.
*WSOP will do nothing except issue a warning if done a lot, floors may call hand passive, but NEVER dead.

I like the passive call on both cash and tourney, you do have to try and stop the collusion, but in most cases it is done by mistake. I HATE killing hands for this reason, but that is the norm in Michigan.


2. Check out this guys move! Try to determine what he is doing before you read the ending.
Player A is in the big blind. He is a crazy angle shooter (this is not his first attempt). He has been having a bad session and is getting a little out of hand.
This is a $1-$2 NLH cash game. In the BB he puts a full stack of red which is $100. Do you know what his angle is yet?
I was actually dealing this hand as a relief push for my dealers. I knew right away what he was up to and had to be ready.
The UTG player says "call" and puts out the $100. Before the action moves much player A then says out loud - "I can fold now right?" ...do you know his angle now?

I said, "No, you cant. The UTG players bet is only $2, and action hasnt gotten to you yet anyways. Since UTG said 'call' before making any moves, verbal is always binding, and a call in this spot is only $2 It was a mistake that she put out $100", and I began to return $98 of her money at this time.

Then, for some stupid reason, a player not paying attention calls the $2, and then action gets to player A. I tell him that his $100 bet stands and must be played (out of action play stands if action does not change up to his turn - only a raise (or bet) constitutes a change in action, calls checks or folds do not). So he puts in the $100, the UTG player calls, and the unknowing idiot folds and wonders what the hell is happening.

So, to sum up, what Player A was doing was trying to manipulate someone to put in the $100 as a raise to the BB, then he could look at his cards, and decide to call the $100 or fold his $2 BB, since the action would have changed and his OOT action was no longer binding. BUT to his dismay, the UTG player actually said 'call' before she put out the $100, meaning she really only called the $2 BB, then player A opened his big mouth and revealed his angle play. (though I already knew what it was - unfortunately, if the UTG had not said call her $100 would have changed the action and he could have folded, I warned him not to do it again and would have no matter what the outcome was)

SADLY, player A won the hand on a massive bad beat - UTG had A J suited and he had J 5 off suit, hit a 5 - ick! He did not tip me.

What do you guys got? Any good stories? Questions about calls? Lets make this a good thread and maybe get it to be a sticky of its own!
 
detroitjunkie

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Come on guys, lets get this post going, only 2 views? Must have been a bad time slot, maybe I should move to Friday nights.
 
S3mper

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Come on guys, lets get this post going, only 2 views? Must have been a bad time slot, maybe I should move to Friday nights.

The reason for the low views is because it's in the Brags Beats and Challenges. It's one of the lower viewed sections of the forums.

I like the idea of this thread.

It would get much more love in "General Poker" and is probably the best spot for it. :)

I'm going to report it and try to get it moved to that section for you.
 
makisaa

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Anyway player A had a bad behavior, and not fair play. I think he was eresponsible because simply and easily someone may had a much better hand than his!
 
daredeviljo

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QUESTION:
1: How many physical chips are in one's stack—both in cash game and tournament play (i.e., $1000: 50s (5), 20s (25), 10s (20), 5s (10)
2: What is the proper way to layout one's stack?

Thank you so much!
 
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I like being able to expose cards if heads up. That's just me though. I usually check before doing so as most casinos frown upon this behavior.
 
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question from me

if there is a bad beat jackpot and everyone folds to small blind and big blind if they try to verbally collude to check it down just for the possible chance of hitting the bad beat would you do anything to stop it or just let it ride
 
S3mper

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I like being able to expose cards if heads up. That's just me though. I usually check before doing so as most casinos frown upon this behavior.

To add to this what are your thoughts on the no talking about the contents of your hand rule (WSOP). Whether it be the truth or a lie (bluff) in attempts to level your opponent. (Heads-Up)
 
WVHillbilly

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I like being able to expose cards if heads up. That's just me though. I usually check before doing so as most casinos frown upon this behavior.

I'm confused as to when this would ever be an advantage??? Please explain.
 
kbuinowski

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Hey all, I wanted to start a thread, or a blog, or a something here that talks about live play and the rules and floor calls that govern it. I wasn't sure where to put it and this seemed like the most logical place I guess.

I currently manage 2 poker rooms in Michigan, and deal poker at the WSOP every summer. I have been involved in poker for many years now and consider myself a rules guru (well officially part of a rules guru team, which consists of several floor managers in Michigan, and floors and dealers in Vegas).

This thread should be about questions you may have regarding a floor call, stories about calls and play, or anything about how a card room operates.

I will get us started with two issues.

1. There is always major issues and fights about how to rule on a pre-exposed hand. I have seen it dealt with several different ways...our card room (and most card rooms in Michigan) rule it the worst way in cash games.
*What we do (unfortunately - I am lobbying to change) in a cash game for a per-exposed hand with action pending, is declare the hand dead and all chips into the pot are forfeited. This is because of the rampant collusion that you find in non-casino (and sometimes in the casino) poker rooms. In tournaments, the hand is declared passive, player can only call, check, or fold.
*Others will declare passive hand in both cash and tourney.
*WSOP will do nothing except issue a warning if done a lot, floors may call hand passive, but NEVER dead.

I like the passive call on both cash and tourney, you do have to try and stop the collusion, but in most cases it is done by mistake. I HATE killing hands for this reason, but that is the norm in Michigan.


2. Check out this guys move! Try to determine what he is doing before you read the ending.
Player A is in the big blind. He is a crazy angle shooter (this is not his first attempt). He has been having a bad session and is getting a little out of hand.
This is a $1-$2 NLH cash game. In the BB he puts a full stack of red which is $100. Do you know what his angle is yet?
I was actually dealing this hand as a relief push for my dealers. I knew right away what he was up to and had to be ready.
The UTG player says "call" and puts out the $100. Before the action moves much player A then says out loud - "I can fold now right?" ...do you know his angle now?

I said, "No, you cant. The UTG players bet is only $2, and action hasnt gotten to you yet anyways. Since UTG said 'call' before making any moves, verbal is always binding, and a call in this spot is only $2 It was a mistake that she put out $100", and I began to return $98 of her money at this time.

Then, for some stupid reason, a player not paying attention calls the $2, and then action gets to player A. I tell him that his $100 bet stands and must be played (out of action play stands if action does not change up to his turn - only a raise (or bet) constitutes a change in action, calls checks or folds do not). So he puts in the $100, the UTG player calls, and the unknowing idiot folds and wonders what the hell is happening.

So, to sum up, what Player A was doing was trying to manipulate someone to put in the $100 as a raise to the BB, then he could look at his cards, and decide to call the $100 or fold his $2 BB, since the action would have changed and his OOT action was no longer binding. BUT to his dismay, the UTG player actually said 'call' before she put out the $100, meaning she really only called the $2 BB, then player A opened his big mouth and revealed his angle play. (though I already knew what it was - unfortunately, if the UTG had not said call her $100 would have changed the action and he could have folded, I warned him not to do it again and would have no matter what the outcome was)

SADLY, player A won the hand on a massive bad beat - UTG had A J suited and he had J 5 off suit, hit a 5 - ick! He did not tip me.

What do you guys got? Any good stories? Questions about calls? Lets make this a good thread and maybe get it to be a sticky of its own!

I would like to know what happens if the dealer deals the cards and one turns over during the deal and the player did not get to the card yet?

My worse hand i play is 7,9 off suit or suited. i was in tourney. over in Indiana. two other guys was in has well. can not remember what suit it was in.one guy had and A something he hit the flush. other guy had a K something he hit the flush has well with the K. both guys went all in at the turn when they hit the flush. i called has well and i stayed with a 7,9 with the same suit and flop the flopped a straight flush. this was in the first hand so i guess you can bad beat.
 
detroitjunkie

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I'm confused as to when this would ever be an advantage??? Please explain.

Most rooms will allow you to do almost anything when heads up in a cash game (tournament a whole other story). The reason some players like to show cards is to get a read on opponents reaction to seeing it, whether or not they know how to read people is a whole other issue, but they like to think they can. More than heads up this play will get you into trouble and may be subject to penalty (our rooms kill the hands)
 
detroitjunkie

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To add to this what are your thoughts on the no talking about the contents of your hand rule (WSOP). Whether it be the truth or a lie (Bluff) in attempts to level your opponent. (Heads-Up)

I like to allow players to do whatever they want when heads up. Truth or lie, this is a tool of the game. Being able to read your opponents and get them to give away information any way you can. Live poker has always been about tells, and if your talk can get them to give a tell then good for you. The WSOP has been loosing their control on this because too many players (like Kid Poker who is VERY influential at WSOP) have been saying talk should be allowed to a certain point.

Berating a player will never be tolerated, so this can not be part of the talk.

However there are two issues
1. This can take up time and slow the game down. In a cash game that means less rake per hour - very bad. In tournament it means less hands per blind level, makes other players angry, and some consider it unfair because they cant read people as well (to this point though I say tuff shit-learn to do it)

2. Collusion can be afoot, (not really an issue when in cash game) where as a player may not want to take another out of tournament, or may want to dump chips to them, either way this is very bad. I leave it up to the dealer to decide which is happening, if any of it. If floor is called, then a warning should be issued either way just to keep the players at bay and let them know that we are watching.
 
detroitjunkie

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I would like to know what happens if the dealer deals the cards and one turns over during the deal and the player did not get to the card yet?

My worse hand i play is 7,9 off suit or suited. i was in tourney. over in Indiana. two other guys was in has well. can not remember what suit it was in.one guy had and A something he hit the flush. other guy had a K something he hit the flush has well with the K. both guys went all in at the turn when they hit the flush. i called has well and i stayed with a 7,9 with the same suit and flop the flopped a straight flush. this was in the first hand so i guess you can bad beat.

Im not sure what you are asking but I think its about if a card flips over during the deal. It depends on what position.
If a card flips on the first card dealt to either blind then its a misdeal and the dealer starts over. (some rooms say only if first card is flipped and not the second)
If a card is flipped during any other spot then the deal continues until button gets second card, then the flipped card is retrieved by the dealer and replaced with the card that would be the burn. The flipped card then becomes the burn card. This allows for the least amount of interference and keeps the hand as original as possible. And yes it is ok for the button to get two cards in a row if their first card was flipped (in the past this wasnt allowed and would be a misdeal if buttons first card was flipped).

In either situation the player has no choice in the matter and MUST give the card back to the dealer.
 
detroitjunkie

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QUESTION:
1: How many physical chips are in one's stack—both in cash game and tournament play (i.e., $1000: 50s (5), 20s (25), 10s (20), 5s (10)
2: What is the proper way to layout one's stack?

Thank you so much!

Number of physical chips is not governed.

They must be laid out however with the biggest ones in front so all can see, both in tourneys and cash.
 
detroitjunkie

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question from me

if there is a bad beat jackpot and everyone folds to small blind and big blind if they try to verbally collude to check it down just for the possible chance of hitting the bad beat would you do anything to stop it or just let it ride


Well this is tricky. As a dealer I wouldnt say anything and just play dumb, because if they hit the jackpot I will get a huge tip.

As a floor, I would give a warning about colluding, but never a penalty and I would never kill the hand, only if a complaint came in. Specific casino may have a rule on this, however they really have no interest, and would rather the jackpot hit (more money for someone to spend on gambling), because they have to have it readily available anyways, and its guaranteed to hit eventually, so not much interest to be gained sitting on it in a bank.

Cant imagine other players at same table would complain since they should, according to most casino rules, get a piece of it. Only in the rare case of other tables complaining would I ever act, and even then I would just give a warning
 
detroitjunkie

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Here's one for you, this is a rule I could never impose at our rooms, but the WSOP is trying to - new at the 2015 WSOP checking in the dark is not allowed and should not be recognized by the dealers. I held up to this rule when dealing bracelets, but not very often in cash games or satellites because I didnt want to hurt my tips. If the person wasnt tipping I would never let them check in the dark.

Also, it is illegal for a player to ask for a wash of the deck. I only do it if the person is known to be a good tipper.

The second rule is easy to say why it is in effect - time, more time washing deck less hands get dealt.

But do you know why the check in the dark is illegal? Its easy if you think about it as an angle move.
 
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