First session of 50 NL - thoughts on these hands?

No reads on check raiser. Should I bet less on the flop giving me more fold equity? What then?


pokerstars Game #19044097177: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/07/23 - 15:27:19 (ET)
Table 'Kythera' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: DV34 ($21.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Mitak13 ($28.50 in chips)
Seat 3: ctcman ($47.40 in chips)
Seat 4: adtdavid ($44.90 in chips)
Seat 5: keimper888 ($39.30 in chips)
Seat 6: txiago ($66 in chips)
Seat 8: I_BE_BAD_ASS ($31.25 in chips)
Seat 9: schlubo ($52.90 in chips)
Mitak13: posts small blind $0.25
ctcman: posts big blind $0.50
Kicking76: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to txiago [Ac Kh]
adtdavid: calls $0.50
keimper888: raises $1 to $1.50
txiago: raises $3.75 to $5.25
I_BE_BAD_ASS: folds
schlubo: folds
DV34: calls $5.25
Mitak13: folds
ctcman: calls $4.75
adtdavid: folds
keimper888: calls $3.75
*** FLOP *** [Ks Js 2h]
ctcman: checks
keimper888: checks
txiago: bets $14.50
DV34: folds
DV34 leaves the table
ctcman: raises $27 to $41.50
keimper888: folds
Eggpie joins the table at seat #1
txiago:?????


No reads on this one either:

PokerStars Game #19044446456: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/07/23 - 15:40:38 (ET)
Table 'Kythera' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Eggpie ($54.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Mitak13 ($41.75 in chips)
Seat 4: adtdavid ($27.35 in chips)
Seat 5: keimper888 ($51.90 in chips)
Seat 6: txiago ($62.75 in chips)
Seat 7: Kicking76 ($32.80 in chips)
Seat 8: I_BE_BAD_ASS ($20.75 in chips)
Seat 9: schlubo ($51.65 in chips)
Kicking76: posts small blind $0.25
I_BE_BAD_ASS: posts big blind $0.50
smooth101: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to txiago [Ks Kd]
schlubo: folds
Eggpie: raises $1.50 to $2
Mitak13: folds
adtdavid: calls $2
keimper888: folds
txiago: raises $6.75 to $8.75
Kicking76: folds
I_BE_BAD_ASS: folds
Eggpie: calls $6.75
adtdavid: calls $6.75
*** FLOP *** [3h 8s 6d]
Eggpie: checks
adtdavid: checks
txiago: bets $14.50
Eggpie: raises $30.95 to $45.45 and is all-in
adtdavid: calls $18.60 and is all-in
txiago:????????


Also did I play this well? SCs are pretty tricky to play with, you can make an argument for folding preflop right away but the table wasn't punishing limpers very much from what I had seen. Bet flop and 3 bet any raise? Bet more on turn? More on river?

PokerStars Game #19044341045: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/07/23 - 15:36:35 (ET)
Table 'Kythera' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Eggpie ($50.95 in chips)
Seat 2: Mitak13 ($42 in chips)
Seat 3: ctcman ($102.45 in chips)
Seat 4: adtdavid ($45.85 in chips)
Seat 5: keimper888 ($52.40 in chips)
Seat 6: txiago ($46.75 in chips)
Seat 7: Kicking76 ($30.25 in chips)
Seat 8: I_BE_BAD_ASS ($25.25 in chips)
Seat 9: schlubo ($51.65 in chips)
Mitak13: posts small blind $0.25
ctcman: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to txiago [8d 9d]
adtdavid: calls $0.50
keimper888: folds
txiago: calls $0.50
Kicking76: folds
I_BE_BAD_ASS: raises $1 to $1.50
schlubo: folds
Eggpie: folds
Mitak13: folds
ctcman: folds
adtdavid: calls $1
txiago: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Jd Td 4h]
adtdavid: checks
txiago: checks
I_BE_BAD_ASS: checks
*** TURN *** [Jd Td 4h] [Qd]
adtdavid: checks
txiago: bets $3
I_BE_BAD_ASS: calls $3
adtdavid: calls $3
*** RIVER *** [Jd Td 4h Qd] [Jh]
adtdavid: checks
txiago: bets $8.50
I_BE_BAD_ASS: folds
adtdavid: calls $8.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
txiago: shows [8d 9d] (a straight flush, Eight to Queen)
adtdavid: mucks hand
ctcman leaves the table
txiago collected $29.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $31.25 | Rake $1.50
Board [Jd Td 4h Qd Jh]
Seat 1: Eggpie (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Mitak13 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: ctcman (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: adtdavid mucked [Qc As]
Seat 5: keimper888 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: txiago showed [8d 9d] and won ($29.75) with a straight flush, Eight to Queen
Seat 7: Kicking76 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: I_BE_BAD_ASS folded on the River
Seat 9: schlubo folded before Flop (didn't bet)


I'll be back in a few hours, I expect some feedback by then.

the straight flush draw hand I would probably bet the flop unless the original raisers c-bet percentage is extremely high. With a draw like that, I would be looking to build a pot. I wouldnt even mind stacking a flop with 15 outs twice.

1st and 2nd ones I stack here. I'm going broke with KK/AA in a 3-bet pot practically all the time (assuming no A on the board with KK). The first one there are just too many draws and you have too much committed to fold imo.

Probably should be in the Ring Game HA section instead of here.

Agree w/ Zach on 1st 2 hands. 1st hand you have to call 27 more into a pot of 77, almost 3-1 2nd hand, a lot of times both opponents will be on FD.

3rd hand, w/ the OESFD you need to bet this on the flop and turn.

massey1986 said:

for your second hand i dunno.its hard to call an all in with just a pair of ks often your running into to trips or aces

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Well if they did have trips, in a 3-bet pot preflop, they did not have implied odds so the overall hand is profitable, the only question is whether a fold would be more profitable than a call. You could be beat, but I still prefer the call, as 99-QQ probably stack here as well.

1st and 2nd ones I stack here. I'm going broke with KK/AA in a 3-bet pot practically all the time (assuming no A on the board with KK). The first one there are just too many draws and you have too much committed to fold imo.

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Oh good if Zach thinks it's okay to stack there that means I played correctly =). Zach would you have bet as much as I did on the flop with AK? I thought I had too much in to fold by then with those draws as well as a possible tie against another AK, but is it a better line if I bet less, say 12$ or even check my single pair or do you think I played it optimally? The KK hand I thought was more standard, but the second opponent insta calling had me thinking. But with no reads I figured he could very well have QQ/JJ and push as well. Also do you bet the flop with the open ended straight flush draw? I intended to check raise and bet whatever the turn came, but sadly he checked behind. Maybe I should have bet more on the turn or river?

I'll post the results tomorrow, hoping someone has something more to add. I might play 500 more hands tomorrow if I'm feeling like playing cash. I'm so sick of only being able to play 4 tables. I feel like I can do 8-10, yet I'm stuck with half of that. Plus I really should buy PT3. And maybe joining some training site. I haven't felt like my game was evolving for a while now, I really don't want to be stuck like this, I wanna take it to the next level. I don't stick to a set game (MTTs, SNGs, cash), maybe that's a problem? Yesterday I jumped from HU SNGs to single table SNGs to MTTs, and today I decided to play cash. I'm comfortable playing all of them, I feel like I'm very good at all of the games but maybe sticking to one would be the best choice? Also I really should try out other games like PLO or something... urgh what the hell I'm drifting so much from the thread here it's not even funny, I'm just gonna end my rant...

ABorges said:

would you have bet as much as I did on the flop with AK? I thought I had too much in to fold by then with those draws as well as a possible tie against another AK, but is it a better line if I bet less, say 12$ or even check my single pair or do you think I played it optimally?

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Personally I've had a lot of trouble with these types of hands as well, going broke when against AA/KK here, but with the money invested I personally would not be folding here. I'd like to hear from some other people because my play may be spew but most of the time here I'm either check-raising or bet/calling or betting both flop and turn if there's a call. The problem is I don't know what would raise your flop bet other than KQ or something? This is a bluff like never, so I don't know. It's a tough spot, and one I definitely need to examine a lot more, because I feel 3-bet pots with AK are pretty easy when you miss, but when I hit I always end up over-valuing my hand it seems.

ABorges said:

Also do you bet the flop with the open ended straight flush draw? I intended to check raise and bet whatever the turn came, but sadly he checked behind. Maybe I should have bet more on the turn or river?

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Basically here I like to be the one making the shove without a huge overbet. If we're slightly shorter I'll go for a check-raise (and remember, it's not a huge loss if we get a check behind), but you have deep enough stacks that I'd just bet here and then if we get raised shove it in.

Hand #2 I'm stacking as well. Hand #1 I was originally inclined to fold but villain is in the BB and called your 3-bet after someone else called behind, the CR. Does he do this with AA/KK/JJ/KJ/AsQs? What does he think that you're 3-betting and then betting into 2 others with? Just thinking aloud.

I'm starting to talk myself into calling, but I might still vote fold and wait for reads before stacking with TPTK.

NineLions said:

Hand #2 I'm stacking as well. Hand #1 I was originally inclined to fold but villain is in the BB and called your 3-bet after someone else called behind, the CR. Does he do this with AA/KK/JJ/KJ/AsQs? What does he think that you're 3-betting and then betting into 2 others with? Just thinking aloud.

I'm starting to talk myself into calling, but I might still vote fold and wait for reads before stacking with TPTK.

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I agree Hand #2 you are stacking. If you are beat, you are beat... say NH and move on (for the record I think one guy has 1010 or JJ and the other guy flopped a set). Hand #1 I'm not so sure. If I read the hand right the guy who raised your post flop bet was first to act after the flop. This hand has KJ JJ written all over it. KJ more likely considering I woulda reraised with JJ preflop to see where I stood in the hand, but that is me. Curious to hear how hand #1 turned out. He could also be on some kind of nut straight flush, gutshot straight draw with A10 or something. If the guy is a complete fish he'll turn over KQ. and be crushed.

Hand number 1 is draws or 2 pair almost always. With the $$ in the pot I stack.

Hand 2 is also a stack. In a 3bet pot with that flop the only thing I expect to see that beats me is AA.

Hand 3 I probably bet the flop unless I was confident that the PFR would cbet.

Okay, time for results. I don't have the history here, but I stacked on both hands. I was pretty sure #2 was standard, just wanted to be 100% for future hands. #1 I was pretty sure I was beat, but I thought I had too much invested to fold with the flush draw on the board and the possibility he had AK as well. I thought if I was beat it was against JJ since that's the kind of hand most people cold call 3 bets with, but he turned KJs for two pair and took the pot. #2 I decided to call, though when the shortstacked player called it made the decision it more difficult. Raiser had AA which was what I feared and shorty had 98o for some reason... these two hands pretty much took me down yesterday for something like a -2 buy in session, but I got it almost all back today when I was at the better end of the hand. Thanks for all the advice.

ABorges said:

Okay, time for results. I don't have the history here, but I stacked on both hands. I was pretty sure #2 was standard, just wanted to be 100% for future hands. #1 I was pretty sure I was beat, but I thought I had too much invested to fold with the flush draw on the board and the possibility he had AK as well. I thought if I was beat it was against JJ since that's the kind of hand most people cold call 3 bets with, but he turned KJs for two pair and took the pot. #2 I decided to call, though when the shortstacked player called it made the decision it more difficult. Raiser had AA which was what I feared and shorty had 98o for some reason... these two hands pretty much took me down yesterday for something like a -2 buy in session, but I got it almost all back today when I was at the better end of the hand. Thanks for all the advice.

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Yea now reviewing it KJ made the most sense. Thanks for the post, enjoyed it.

FWIW, I would never fold #1. He doesn't have enough behind to kill your odds. If he can have KJ there, he can have KQ. He could also have AK for a chop or AsQs for a slight edge in your favor. KJ and JJ are possible but less likely, and given the crazy good pot odds, you can't just assume you're beat. I'd say you have somewhere around a 40-45% share of that pot against his range (I'm not giving it an even probability distribution, mind you), and the pot odds absolutely make that a call.

Edit: I say KJ and JJ are less likely than KQ or AK mainly because of statistics. Players more often have medium strength hands than big hands because more cards have to come out just right to hit a big hand. Also, the KJ is less likely because it is the weakest hand I listed, and he cold called a preflop 3-bet. Can't rule it out, but I'm just saying it's rarer.

I agree with the mob on #2.

On hand #3, I'm trying to get big action on the flop. I like the check/raise line, because the preflop raiser has yet to act, and that's a likely flop for him to have hit a medium strength hand (one pair or a straight draw). I hope that was your intent. I wouldn't check/call there ever.

Yes I was hoping to check raise with the intent to put it all in the middle as a favorite against most hands. In retrospect maybe I should have bet out hoping I was raised and then I could 3 bet all in, as stack sizes are more appropriate for that I think. But with that board I'm more likely to get called instead of raised by the preflop raiser and I'll be playing OOP against the aggressor on the turn, and if I miss it can lead to a tough decision. I don't know, I guess both lines are acceptable.