First live tournament tomorrow. Basic stuff?

BlueNowhere · Dec 17, 2011

Well I've played live before but never at an actual casino, just locally where we did have dealers but I don't think really knew the full rules.

What are the basic stuff that you are expected to do without prompting from the dealer?

Am I allowed to look at opponents cards if they muck?
How do I know whether to muck or not? Say if I have 2nd pair and call I might want to muck but I may be good so do I flip over straight away? What if they don't turn over straight away, should I?
If I want to know how many chips someone hass can I ask if I have no intention of answering if anyone asks me? Would I tell people this when I sit down that I won't answer any questions in a hand and they can feel free not to ansewr any of mine? If I don't want to say should I just ask the dealer to count their chips?
Do I have to announce every action?

Heres what I know:

Don't act out of turn.
Don't look at cards until it is your go (is this an actual rule?)
Don't have a dirty stack

I realise most of my questions sound pretty newbish but not really sure what I would do in scenarios listed.

Tammy · Dec 17, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
Well I've played live before but never at an actual casino, just locally where we did have dealers but I don't think really knew the full rules.

What are the basic stuff that you are expected to do without prompting from the dealer? Post your blinds; fold, bet, check, or call.

Am I allowed to look at opponents cards if they muck? Yes, but it's actually a pretty rude thing to do. Only do it if you want to piss people off (or if there's a real discrepancy in a hand, in which case the dealer will probably do it anyway...this hardly ever happens, at least in my experience).

How do I know whether to muck or not? You can muck your hand after action is closed anytime if you know you're beat. Otherwise, you can wait for the dealer to tell you. Say if I have 2nd pair and call I might want to muck but I may be good so do I flip over straight away? What if they don't turn over straight away, should I? If in doubt, look to the dealer for direction. There's no harm in it; that's why they're there.

If I want to know how many chips someone has can I ask if I have no intention of answering if anyone asks me? Not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure you have to answer, if you're in the hand with them. And yes, you can ask. The deal will count them if the other player doesn't.
Would I tell people this when I sit down that I won't answer any questions in a hand and they can feel free not to answer any of mine? No.
If I don't want to say should I just ask the dealer to count their chips? I'm not sure what you mean here.
Do I have to announce every action? It's always a good idea, but you don't have to announce fold (it's obvious when you're folding, or should be obv.). You can tap the table to check. But you should always announce a raise or all-in.

Heres what I know:

Don't act out of turn.
Don't look at cards until it is your go (is this an actual rule?)
Don't have a dirty stack

I realise most of my questions sound pretty newbish but not really sure what I would do in scenarios listed.

See bold.

tenbob · Dec 17, 2011

Look just try to be a nice guy at the table, and the rest will follow, remember its not the wsop. If someone asks for a count, give it. If you have to show, show. Dont be an ass and ask to see mucked hands, go there play decent poker, and be mates with everyone.

Remember, ppl perfer losing money to someone that they respect rather than somone that they hate.

MediaBLITZ · Dec 17, 2011

Am I allowed to look at opponents cards if they muck?
NO, unless you want to get in a fight - you against the rest of the poker room.

How do I know whether to muck or not?
You act in turn - the person who initiated the bet/raise is the one obligated to show his cards once he has been called. So if you call, you can muck once you see the other guy has you beat. If you have him beat then show your cards and wait for the dealer to declare you the winner and push the chips your way. If you are the one who was called then you are obligated to show first (but if the other guy jumps you and you see he has you beat you can muck without showing).

If I want to know how many chips someone hass can I ask if I have no intention of answering if anyone asks me?
YES - go ahead and be a douche bag (see other thread)... OR you can ask the dealer how many and avoid looking like a DB. Also if you get asked, just present your chips to the dealer to take care of it.

Would I tell people this when I sit down that I won't answer any questions in a hand and they can feel free not to ansewr any of mine?
NO - this is understood and they just won't care. The dealer will handle the rest. Plus you pull that with me at the table and I'll go out of my way to chat you up. Understand that if you go and try to be Joe Cool Hardass there are 8 or 9 other guys at the table with way more experience and these usually nice guys can easily play hardball, tag team your ass and make what should an enjoyable experience for you a living hell. You can treat it like business and still be a nice guy. You don't have to answer their questions while in a hand and they all know that but there are those who will test your mettle on it too. Don't you watch poker on TV? I remember a hand with Gus Hansen stonewalling Daniel Negreanu. Daniel of course loves to talk and he kept talking to Gus for about 2 or 3 minutes before calling the all in. Let your play to the talking.

If I don't want to say should I just ask the dealer to count their chips?
Go through the dealer on all of this to avoid any tilt inducing (keeping it business and not personal).

Do I have to announce every action?
I assume you mean verbally. The answer is NO. But you better know protocol. Many will say you should announce just so your actions are clear (you can screw yourself by not announcing) but it is not required. Say two chips stick together and you didn't announce your $100 raise and the chip stuck to the $100 chips is a $500. If you did not declare you are not going to get that $500 chip back unless you win the hand. Ask the dealer how they do it there - verbal binding or action binding.

Don't look at cards until it is your go (is this an actual rule?)
NO this is not a rule it is a strategy. If you don't know why then it doesn't matter. Plus there are varying opinions on when you should look at your cards. One thing is for sure, when you are looking at your cards you are not looking at your opponents.

Just relax - be friendly with the dealers and they will help you through it. Dealers are there to keep the game moving so they have no problem letting you know when and what to do. They have no expectations of you acting on anything without their prompting. So TIP THE DEALERS

pcgnome · Dec 17, 2011

One more thing...If you are in a tournament and you have the nuts, then you have to bet if the guy before you has checked . You don't want anybody to accuse you of collusion

BlueNowhere · Dec 17, 2011

OK thanks.

What I meant by "If I don't want to say should I just ask the dealer to count their chips?" was if I don't want to say how many chips I have should I just ask the dealer to count their chips rather then ask them if I didn't want to answer? but you answered that in the next part of your post.

Another question:

If I call someone and they muck instantly do i have to show my cards to take the pot? Once their cards hit the much they are dead so would the pot be awarded to me without me even needing to show?

Can't believe I can't even look at peoples hands. Whenever I've played before we've always just flipped them up if it goes to showdown (at a local pub with clueless delaers mind).

Another two questions as well:

Can I use a chip as a card protector?

Can I say what I have in a hand whilst I'm thinking of calling or is that classed as an angleshoot/bad etiquette?

BlueNowhere · Dec 17, 2011

MediaBLITZ said:
Am I allowed to look at opponents cards if they muck?
NO, unless you want to get in a fight - you against the rest of the poker room.

How do I know whether to muck or not?
You act in turn - the person who initiated the bet/raise is the one obligated to show his cards once he has been called. So if you call, you can muck once you see the other guy has you beat. If you have him beat then show your cards and wait for the dealer to declare you the winner and push the chips your way. If you are the one who was called then you are obligated to show first (but if the other guy jumps you and you see he has you beat you can muck without showing).

If I want to know how many chips someone hass can I ask if I have no intention of answering if anyone asks me?
YES - go ahead and be a douche bag (see other thread)... OR you can ask the dealer how many and avoid looking like a DB. Also if you get asked, just present your chips to the dealer to take care of it.

Would I tell people this when I sit down that I won't answer any questions in a hand and they can feel free not to ansewr any of mine?
NO - this is understood. The dealer will handle the rest.

If I don't want to say should I just ask the dealer to count their chips?
Go through the dealer on all of this to avoid any tilt inducing (keeping it business and not personal).

Do I have to announce every action?
I assume you mean verbally. The answer is NO. But you better know protocol. Many will say you should announce just so your actions are clear (you can screw yourself by not announcing) but it is not required. Say two chips stick together and you didn't announce your $100 raise and the chip stuck to the $100 chips is a $500. If you did not declare you are not going to get that $500 chip back unless you win the hand. Ask the dealer how they do it there - verbal binding or action binding.

Don't look at cards until it is your go (is this an actual rule?)
NO this is not a rule it is a strategy. If you don't know why then it doesn't matter. Plus there are varying opinions on when you should look at your cards. One thing is for sure, when you are looking at your cards you are not looking at your opponents.

Just relax - be friendly with the dealers and they will help you through it.

So if I want to know how many chips someone has I can ask the dealer for a count of their chips and then it won't be bad etiquette if I don't respond if someone asks me?

I'll just watch the others early on and ee if the general thing is verbally binding or action binding.

MediaBLITZ · Dec 17, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
OK thanks.

What I meant by "If I don't want to say should I just ask the dealer to count their chips?" was if I don't want to say how many chips I have should I just ask the dealer to count their chips rather then ask them if I didn't want to answer? but you answered that in the next part of your post.

Another question:

If I call someone and they muck instantly do i have to show my cards to take the pot? Once their cards hit the much they are dead so would the pot be awarded to me without me even needing to show? CORRECT Do not show- but be damn sure you are the only one left in the hand before you get rid of your cards. I always wait for the dealer to move the chips before I muck.

Can't believe I can't even look at peoples hands. Whenever I've played before we've always just flipped them up if it goes to showdown (at a local pub with clueless delaers mind). Do it once at the casino and I promise you won't do it again - lol

Another two questions as well:

Can I use a chip as a card protector? YES

Can I say what I have in a hand whilst I'm thinking of calling or is that classed as an angleshoot/bad etiquette? Don't do it - but you would have to ask at that casino if it is actually prohibited by rule.

XXX

MediaBLITZ · Dec 17, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
So if I want to know how many chips someone has I can ask the dealer for a count of their chips and then it won't be bad etiquette if I don't respond if someone asks me?
CORRECT BUT Let's be clear - it is not bad etiquette for you not to respond to another player - that is okay. It is bad etiquette for you not to respond but expect to get that courtesy from another player. That's why you will see dealers automatically grab stacks to count when the question comes up. They have seen too many fights break out over that very item.

I'll just watch the others early on and ee if the general thing is verbally binding or action binding. I strongly recommend you ask for the floor super and pull them aside and ask them before you start playing.

XXX

MediaBLITZ · Dec 17, 2011

Oh and on this flipping cards over (and this may be where the misapplication is coming from at your pub) -

When there is an all in AND betting action is over-all hole cards of players in the hand are required to be shown.
Again, the dealer will say "flip em over".
But here is where it could get screwed up. Flop comes and three or more people are in the hand. You are the short stack and go all in. DO NOT FLIP YOUR CARDS OVER. There are still two or more other players who have more chips to bet. Betting action is not over and it may not be over until after the hand is completed.

jsaw · Dec 17, 2011

A comment on looking at your cards - the general rule is not to look at them, but to concentrate on the reaction of other players as they look at your cards. Most players follow this strategy. However, some older pros will look at one or both very quickly as they are dealt, while trying to watch the other players. They will do this especially if one or more players are slow or clumsy looking at their cards. The idea is that by the time it gets around to your turn in the standard rotation look look at your cards you already know what you have and thus anyone who is not watching you intently will miss part or all of your reaction.

F4STFORW4RD · Dec 17, 2011

Don't look at cards until it is your go

The point of this is not to give any tells to the people playing before you about how good a hand you have.

BlueNowhere · Dec 17, 2011

Ok cheers MediaBLITZ. Is there no excpetion where it would be acceptable to ask them to show then? Online has made me develop every bad habit possible I think lol

I thought it mgiht be a rule about looking at your cards as if I look straight away then just look like I'm not interested in this hand then it could affect other players actions.

Also whats the rules about music? I've seen pros at tables with headphones but do most casinos allow this?

baudib1 · Dec 17, 2011

Casinos do not require it so that you have exact counts on everyone's chips so that you can make surgically precise betsizing decisions. Your chips must be visible and in behind your cards and with large denominations in front or on top, not hidden.

Beyond that, everything is pretty much based on etiquette, not hard and fast rules.

If someone asks for a count, tell them what you have. You should always keep a rough idea in your head of how many chips each person has in no-limit/pot-limit games. You can say something like, "about 30,000."

Do not ask for counts every time you need to make a bet or a call unless it's an all-in, unless they have some elaborate chip pyramid like some people do in the WSOP. Most people will stack their chips in rows of 20 in cash games; in tournaments, most people just stack them evenly so you can easily count.

Do not muck out of order in multiway pots. If someone bets and you call and they make a declaration "2 pair" or "I got a boat," you should hold onto your cards until they show. But if they flip immediately and you are beat, then either muck right away or pound the table or say "good hand," to indicate you lost, otherwise they will think you are about to slowroll them.

It's always safer to just flip your cards at showdown (even Phil Ivey can misread his hand) but some people don't because they want to reveal as little information as possible.

baudib1 · Dec 17, 2011

and if you win, tip the dealers.

BlueNowhere · Dec 17, 2011

Ok thanks.

It's a tournament so do I still tip the dealers if I won or go deep?

baudib1 · Dec 17, 2011

baudib1 · Dec 17, 2011

oh and you're allowed to look at your cards whenever you want but a lot of people don't because A. you should be looking at the other players looking at their hands and B. you might give off some tell. Personally think this is EXTREMELY overrated but w/e.

Don't ask to see cards that are mucked.

nevadanick · Dec 18, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
Ok thanks.

It's a tournament so do I still tip the dealers if I won or go deep?

In many tournaments there is an 'add-on' before the start. It's generally a small add-on that gives you a few more chips and it is generally designated as a dealer 'tip' if you elect to participate in the add-on. Rather poor judgement NOT to take the pre-game add-on, imo. You start at a chip disadvantage if you don't.

Even if you buy the pre-game dealer add-on, it is STILL recommended to tip the dealer if you cash.

*******************************

WEC · Dec 18, 2011

Generally, prior to the tournament starting, most casinos will always go over some specific rules regarding their tournaments. Make sure you listen closely. Many casinos have different rules concerning cash and tournament rules, and some casinos even have different rules for cash games and tournaments in the same card room.

Pay specific attention to chip rules as these are generally the ones that will mess a new player up. To be safe, only cross the "betting line" with chips you intend to bet. Many casinos do not allow you to cross line, then "cut off" chips, so you will be forced to bet all chips in your hand.

I have found for new players that it is easier to just always state your betting intentions verbally prior to even touching your chips so that your verbal actions are binding and no mistakes you make in chip handling will effect your play.

Good Luck

MediaBLITZ · Dec 18, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
Ok thanks.

It's a tournament so do I still tip the dealers if I won or go deep?

Especially then.

MediaBLITZ · Dec 18, 2011

BlueNowhere said:
Ok cheers MediaBLITZ. Is there no excpetion where it would be acceptable to ask them to show then?
1) The opportunity will not come up all that often as once they muck their cards the dealer mixes them into the muck pile and will not go looking for them.
2) You can always ask someone to show - that's fine. Just don't take it upon yourself to grab their cards to look.
3) You can always try the old "If I fold, will you show?"
4) If someone shows you then you better plan on reciprocating by showing yours at sometime. Keep it friendly. But if you do show, do it strategically and understand how the info you just gave up might affect the play of others against you at the table.

Online has made me develop every bad habit possible I think lol

I thought it mgiht be a rule about looking at your cards as if I look straight away then just look like I'm not interested in this hand then it could affect other players actions.
That, my friend, would be what we call a "disconnect tell". I used to do it. "La, la, la... Nothing to see here folks. Move along." Again there are differing opinions on the subject and at high levels (book writing "experts"). Personally I never look until its my turn because the best reason I heard for it (I think in a Harrington book) - if you look as soon as cards are dealt and say you got 72o - your interest level and initiative to study what the other guys are doing goes way down hill. If I don't look until my turn I keep my intensity and interest up, assuming I am playing the hand.

Also whats the rules about music? I've seen pros at tables with headphones but do most casinos allow this?
It differs place to place so you might want to call ahead. I play at Harrah's mostly and up until a few months ago it was prohibited.
Another item you haven't mentioned is cell phone use rules (again varies place to place - so call the poker ahead and find out). Where I play you CANNOT have your cell phone out (mostly about texting) if you are in the hand or they will muck you.

A lot of "rules" of poker varies place to place so be sure to talk it over with them.

MediaBLITZ · Dec 18, 2011

WEC said:
Generally, prior to the tournament starting, most casinos will always go over some specific rules regarding their tournaments. Make sure you listen closely.
Let's see, I have played in tourney's in 5 different states and about 12 different places and this has not happened once. So don't count on it. Sounds like it would be a good idea though.

Many casinos have different rules concerning cash and tournament rules, and some casinos even have different rules for cash games and tournaments in the same card room.
Yep, consult your local casino. Add on top of that there can even be slight variance from dealer to dealer in the same place.

Pay specific attention to chip rules as these are generally the ones that will mess a new player up. To be safe, only cross the "betting line" with chips you intend to bet. Many casinos do not allow you to cross line, then "cut off" chips, so you will be forced to bet all chips in your hand.
Drives me crazy when a player grabs a stack and moves the whole stack out past the line to drop 4 chips. Some tight ass dealer could make you leave the whole stack. Find out what constitutes a "betting motion". I had one dealer tell me he could have enforced all the chips in my hand because I counted them out in front of my cards (still only about 5 inches from the rail).

I have found for new players that it is easier to just always state your betting intentions verbally prior to even touching your chips so that your verbal actions are binding and no mistakes you make in chip handling will effect your play.
This would absolutely be best for any player, new or seasoned, in a new place and being unfamiliar with the way things are done in that local. This way you cant screw yourself because of ignorance of some weird rule you hadn't thought of before.

Good Luck

XXX

baudib1 · Dec 18, 2011

I would recommend not having headphones for your first live tournament. Live players willingly give up a lot of information for free if you simply engage them in friendly banter.

A lot of casinos have a "no cellphone at table" rule.

MediaBLITZ · Dec 18, 2011

baudib1 said:
I would recommend not having headphones for your first live tournament. Live players willingly give up a lot of information for free if you simply engage them in friendly banter.
You know - I gotta agree 100%. Disclaimer: I always play with LOUD earphones in (lots of Punk and Metal) and it causes me to miss some stuff - such as when a solo large denom chip is put out I really don't know what the bet is. So for you going into a totally new environment and totally unfamiliar with their rules - headphones would be a mistake (if they are on).
NOTE: I wear them because it truly helps me concentrate and I know how my brain is wired (I am 98% visual). The talking is more of a distraction than a help for me. BUT I spent months playing there with no headphones, dealers all know me by name and know I can't hear anything (I know this because I've heard more than one say it when the music was turned off). If you are more of an auditory person then you can take more advantage of what Baudib is talking about. Of course if there is guy that I don't know at the table being chatty I will turn my music way down and listen in for a while to see if i can find out anything that will help me.

A lot of casinos have a "no cellphone at table" rule.

xxx

First live tournament tomorrow. Basic stuff?

BlueNowhere

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