entertainment expense

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SolaRoe

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Well, after exactly 70 10-man $3 SnGs on Party, I'm down about $33, or 11 buyins+entry fees. I'm being helped out by a $15 cashout-restricted bonus and the first $6.25 tranche of a release-restricted bonus or I'd be down about $55, more than the $50 I deposited. I found that my performance goes in streaks; I can go as many as 13 SnGs without placing in the money, and then finish 1st two SnGs in a row. Overall I'm ITM between 22% and 30% of the time, but I'm slowly bleeding red anyway.

I've been doing some research on Full Tilt, which is supposed to come back online around November 6th (although maybe not for Americans; it says "in some countries"). Supposedly, about 30% of Full Tilt players were profitable before Full Tilt lost its license. There should have been a huge outcry from millions of players saying "where's my money?", but in fact barely anyone said a word. Only a few top online pros complained in public about having thousands of dollars tied up on Full Tilt. This suggests to me that the percentage of profitable players is wildly exaggerated in popular poker culture. It's possible that nearly nobody makes a profit playing onlline poker. That makes me feel far less alone, because, if everybody loses, then it makes sense that I'm losing too.

So I guess what I'm looking at is online poker as an entertainment expense, just like anything else that costs you money instead of making you money. It's now about five full days since I started playing, and playing has passed my time enjoyably. If I'm losing $55 every five days, then that prorates to $77 per week or $341 per 31-day month. Family men can spend $250 taking their wife and kids to one single hockey game in this city, so it's like I'm taking my nonexistent family to one hockey game each month. The expense is not unreasonable for someone who can afford it. I'll just have to figure out what I can afford. I might end up playing poker in five-day bursts about three times each month. It'll still be a fun way to kill time.
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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Your sample size is way too small to make these kinds of decisions. You also need to track your ROI and your hourly rate. ITM rate isn't really useful.
 
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SolaRoe

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Maybe you can let me know how much of a sample size would give me a clearer idea of what my actual loss rate is.

My ROI and hourly rates are obviously in the negative. :) Tracking them would do me absolutely no good whatsoever because all they'd tell me is that I'm a losing player at my limit. Who knows, maybe I can drop down to the $1 limit, but those are all super turbos with 3-minute blinds, so they're like a lottery ticket. Besides, playing for half an hour and finishing 3rd and making a net profit of 40 cents on a particular SnG wouldn't be exactly inspirational. I don't expect to be profitable, but I also don't want to piddle around with pennies.

Thanks for your input, tho.
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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Sounds like you are trying to get your mind wrapped around where you want poker to fit into your lifestyle. Been there, done that!! All hobbies have expenses and a 'fun' quotient. Most people think of these expenses only in terms of time and money but there can also be other expenses such as physical toll, impact on our profession, impact on family & friends. If the 'fun' doesn't meet up with our investments then we reduce our activity or drop the hobby altogether. I've always been a 'serious' hobbyist in most of my hobbies. Whether it was flying model rockets or coaching youth sports. I could quantify the expenses of all of these. Poker has been no different except for me it has been a hobby that (so far) is paying it's bills. But I have had to invest in this hobby; at first it was with a faster computer, poker trackers and game playing add-ons then books and coaching. So far the 'fun' that I have with it makes my investments look solid. So the point for you is to take a clear look at what 'fun' you want in your life, what kind of investment will it take to acquire your 'fun' and whether you can meet the two.
 
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tcummo

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I would advise people who are new, or unsure about their 'poker goals' to
start with freerolls and try to build a BR 'working' their way up thru' the levels.
This will teach you good brm, is risk free, you get to play lots of hands, and its great fun.
The 'idea' is to give yourself a good foundation to build upon.
As you become more confident and a better player, you can re-evaluate.
This is just my opinion and the way I go about it.
I think it's a sensible, safe way.
Good luck.
 
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Caesura

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To be fair, you can't really put a value on the happiness you give by taking your family out, that's what life is all about so the analogy is wrong.
You're better off considering what you spend your money on and using that same money on poker instead. How much money do you spend on beer for instance, or smoking? If you stayed in on a Friday night instead of going to a bar, that's your poker money for the week.
 
JCgrind

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I read somewhere that >10% of online cash game poker players are winners. I think this could've been an article published by PTR back in the day before it stopped tracking all sites. When you consider not only how bad most players are, then combine that with all the rakeback/break even grinders, it really doesn't seem like a figure that's too unreasonable.
 
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SolaRoe

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Thiis is a very good conversation, guys. You've all made a bunch of excellent points.

One week after my deposit I'm still hanging in there like a cheap suit. I've fallen into a pattern of having my SnG experience occur in batches of four SnGs: one 7th or lower place finish, one 5th or 6th place finish, one 4th place finish (there is ALWAYS at least one bubble for me) and the final one being a 2nd or 1st place finish. If I finish 1st I make a few cents over the four SnGs, but if I finish 2nd I lose a few cents. Along the way I'm getting experience and expecting to be able to turn the corner. My financial math says that, if I can hang in there until tomorrow, I can afford to drop another $30 on my poker account just to give myself a more reasonable "starting" bankroll of $80 (including my initial $50 deposit and the new $30 deposit). That's still far less than the $150 recommended by most sources of information, but I can build up to the $150 gradually over time.

I live a dirt-cheap lifestyle, so my entertainment expenses are generally in the single or two digits. Poker is shaping up to be by far the most expensive thing I've done in the past six years, but I'm enjoying it enough to be worth it. One thing I don't want to become is what I've seen called a "grinder," which is someone who treats online poker like a job, committing certain hours each day to playing whether he feels like playing or not, and investing a lot of time in studying and hand analysis. I might register Poker Tracker once my free trial is up, or I might just try a Holdem Manager free trial instead, but that will depend on whether I need to make a deposit in my poker account at the time.

So thanks to everyone for taking me seriously in my frivolousness regarding poker. :) I can guess that a lot of you ARE grinders and might be tempted to see me as just another donkey you can scoop money from; but if that's what I turn out to be, don't spend all my money in one place. ;)
 
wagon596

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I use to spend thirty dollars a week-end drag racing. Now that I'm too old to do that, I get my thrill of winning in poker now (and the frustration of losing) I don't win much but it doesn't cost much either.
 
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credsfan03

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You have not played enough games to know that you are a loosing player. You also should try to find out why you are loosing and how you can fix it.
 
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postflopper

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it's definitely not true that everyone loses at poker. lots of break-even players earn a substantial amount from rakeback and that's where they get their income from.
 
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