Double or Nothing SnG's

Hello,

Any double or nothing players only? I'm wondering if it's profitable long term. I'v probably played around 20-30 over my time and cashed in 60% roughly so I'm sure I'm in profit. These are the lowest limit ones and the rake is a killer, $1.10. So on average out of 10 games you can already count one as a loss so I'm going to have to win 6 out of the 9 to have +roi? Is that correct? Long term this doesn't seem profitable to me, however the higher limit ones which I don't know what BR is required for them and maybe if i should try and give it a go?

My actual question is can these be profitable long term or not is it too difficult?

Any "pro" double or nothing players out there with any advice?

All this in account I do find them boring, however are a lot more "safe"

Any thoughts would be great.

I'm wondering aswell by the way, even if you was breaking even at them, with pokerstars VIP programme if you could turn this into a small profit over the long haul?

Cheers in advance people

If my math is correct, break even in these things is a win rate of 55% with a 10% rake. Placing in 55 out of a 100 on average is absollutly doable.

Question is, do you want to?. Its all about staying out of the action in the early rounds, and stealing blinds by shoving later on. I used to play them alot, and apart from the fact that they are excruciatingly booring (my 2 cent), they represent a real danger of screwing with your overall pokerbillity.

Dunno where you play to pay 10% rake but on Stars the DONs only have 4% rake, which means you only need to cash over 52% of the time to make a profit.

I think DONs probably have more skill and are more profitable than normal sit n gos.
I have 20% ROI on DONs whilst in regular sit n gos my ROI is only around 8%.

I do play on stars, just not double-up anymore. 4% rake only makes it that much better

Xavier said:

Dunno where you play to pay 10% rake but on Stars the DONs only have 4% rake, which means you only need to cash over 52% of the time to make a profit.

I think DONs probably have more skill and are more profitable than normal sit n gos.
I have 20% ROI on DONs whilst in regular sit n gos my ROI is only around 8%.

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Well i play on stars and they are $1.10. (10cents being rake)

I was just working it out over 10 tournaments it's $10.00 Then a total of $1.00 in rake thus being 10% meaning already one of my 10 games is forfeited in rake? \or am I doing my maths wrong somewhere lol. I have somewhat not slept!! Maybe I'm calculating wrong somewhere or making some basic error lol.

Thanks for replies.

Some people really seem to struggle with math, regular nlhe dons on PS have a 15% rake and omaha/stud/hi lo games are 20% rake, 10% for turbo's. Play 10 regular nlhe games and win 5 your down $1:50

If the rake is 10% and you win 6 out of 10 you are 1$ up.
(6x2)-(10x1,1)=1

If you play 100
(55x2)-(100x1,1)=0, thus break even must be 55%

This for 1$ double-up with 10% rake. I am sure there is a better formular, i just dont have that kinda math skill

ramdeebam said:

My actual question is can these be profitable long term or not is it too difficult?

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http://www.sharkscope.com/?username=jph181&network=pokerstars

Obviously the kind of volume you must play to earn any significant amount of money just makes you want to slash your wrists instead.

BelgoSuisse said:

http://www.sharkscope.com/?username=jph181&network=pokerstars

Obviously the kind of volume you must play to earn any significant amount of money just makes you want to slash your wrists instead.

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Jesus I just hurled looking at that, I am guessing he is a SNE grinder but DONs are the work of the devil at least the lower stakes ones are, I would think learning standard sngs will be more profitable, enjoyable and better for your game.

Mr McCluskey said:

Jesus I just hurled looking at that, I am guessing he is a SNE grinder

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No, DoN rake is too low for that. He only rakes around $6k per month, which means about 400k VPP per year. A far cry from SNE.

If you are a risk taker with a small bankroll Dons and HU tourneys represent one of the fastest ways to build a bankroll. Instead of Grinding out small wins You can double your bankroll with one win. I have a buddy who is pretty amazing in HU. He will take a small freeroll win and go to town on hu. Just moving up in stakes and cash out very healthy Amounts. You can do same with Dons I think.

Of course you have to have some chops and attitude to do this sort of thing.

whilst being a nice but slow tiny BR builder, they do tend to suck your will to live after a couple of games.

For some reason they have multiple player disconnections and time outs that certainly are enough to drive you mad

beardyian said:

whilst being a nice but slow tiny BR builder, they do tend to suck your will to live after a couple of games.

For some reason they have multiple player disconnections and time outs that certainly are enough to drive you mad

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Indeed. I might well try them though as a tester to see how I go. The timeouts etc woulden' be a problem if you are multi-tabling maybe 20 at a time.

BelgoSuisse said:

No, DoN rake is too low for that. He only rakes around $6k per month, which means about 400k VPP per year. A far cry from SNE.

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Sorry yeah I did mean SN, I have been reading some blogs on the subject of the elites and I am aware of one or two trying at the highest dons.

On the subject matter I remember myself thinking it would be a good idea to grind DONS and found a player who made or is going to make SN at the 1$ games he plays a stupid amount of tables and was at my tables for the day I played them before realisng that I was being stupid. I will try look him up again so you can see how insane he is.

oh that would be nice to see this $1.00 grinder Mr Mccluskey! Any closer on finding out who he is?

How many is he grinding like?

IMO the DoN seem at first to be an easily profitable venture, but you come to realize that you are up against stiff competition and in the long run you will end up losing money at these.

what would be the appropriate bankroll to play $10 DONs ? 50 buyins? 60? 100?...

Pothole said:

Some people really seem to struggle with math, regular nlhe dons on PS have a 15% rake and omaha/stud/hi lo games are 20% rake, 10% for turbo's. Play 10 regular nlhe games and win 5 your down $1:50

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No they don't.
The regular DONs on Stars have 8% rake and the turbo ones have 4% rake, at every stake level other than the $1 ones.
This means you only have to cash in 52% of the turbos and 54% of the regulars to break even.

beardyian said:

For some reason they have multiple player disconnections and time outs that certainly are enough to drive you mad

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How is that a bad thing?
Surely its to your benefit the more the other players disconnect, time out, and sit out.

SunDevil said:

what would be the appropriate bankroll to play $10 DONs ? 50 buyins? 60? 100?...

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I think 50 is enough.
The variance in these is massively less than regular sit n gos for which a 100 buy in bankroll is considered ample.

If you can cash in like 60% of the $100 ones you could certainly make a lot of money mass multitabling them.
But the opposition gets a lot tougher above the $10 ones.

If you played 10 $100 turbo ones and cashed in 6 you make $160
(6 x $200 - 10 x $104) so I wouldn't say they can't be worth it.

They have a lot of advantages over normal sit n gos in that the rake is much better and its way easier to multitable

Xavier said:

How is that a bad thing?
Surely its to your benefit the more the other players disconnect, time out, and sit out.

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Because it kills the flow of the game and thats what tilts me

They can definitely be profitable. I have made a few hundred bucks in these over a few hundred games between the $1 and $10 levels, with an ROI between 15 and 20%. But now as I try to get back to regular STTs I can see how they have affected my game. DoNs are to STTs as tourneys are to ring, they are almost a completely different game.

beardyian said:

Because it kills the flow of the game and thats what tilts me

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If you just play more tables then it won't bother you waiting for disconnections

ramdeebam said:

oh that would be nice to see this $1.00 grinder Mr Mccluskey! Any closer on finding out who he is?

How many is he grinding like?

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Just search "The Ultimate micro grinder" as I am not sure about posting names here but I just saw his graph which has got sicker and not in a good way at all.....

I believe you mean this guy http://www.pokerprolabs.com/rs03rs03/pokerstars.aspx

Ive played like 60 regular $1 DoNs with this guy, have a few thousand hands on him. Last time I looked at his graph it pretty much was just a slow steady grind upwards, now it seems completely opposite, a quick downward spiral.

Thats him just been reading up and found a thread on him he now has increased his fpp rate but is on a downswing, his graph is showing an amazing amount of games since I last read of him.

Xavier said:

No they don't.
The regular DONs on Stars have 8% rake and the turbo ones have 4% rake, at every stake level other than the $1 ones.
This means you only have to cash in 52% of the turbos and 54% of the regulars to break even.

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You contradict yourself in the 1st line. The OP talks about $1 dons, regular speed 10 seat tables have a 15% rake, end of. 6 seat tables 20%. Would you like a screenshot?????