Do you think there are any/many players who make a living that dont study/train?

Do you think there are many players who are playing and making a profit who pretty much dont read books and generally dont have an expert knowledge of stuff like position etc and range..

I know one reasonably successful player andrew feldam from uk who has never really invested time to learn he taught himself to play and generally doesnt spend time working or improving his game.

I also know a local grinder who never read a book or watched a video and 6 tables pokerstars making around 1.5k a month on average.

Do u think its something that is sometines over rated for a talented player and its just less talented players that need the learning investment?

I dont see why is this question important for you Are you lazy to study game?
I think it is possible to be profitable without reading books or watching videos. Ofcourse you have to be very inteligent person to realise mistakes you made, without studying it, just by training - playing poker. But it will take you longer time and maybe cost you more money to "learn" those things by playing, then by studying.

Some people are born with good instincts and with a lot of hours of playing they can easily master a certain limit. Although i don't think those people can play high limits

Define making a living? The local grinder who you refer to who makes $1.5k a month and has never studied I wouldn't really define as someone who can/does make a living from poker but of course it depends on his life and outgoings. If he's living as a tenant in a house and pays £50 a week which includes all his bills then I guess you could class $1.5k per month as a decent wage and a living but if he is someone who has their own house, pays bills, runs their car, has holidays etc which a normal job could support then I doubt we can class $1.5k as making a living as it's probably slightly less than the minimum wage in the UK and that couldn't support a house,bills,car,holidays etc. With that said, if he has never studied or watched poker videos then I'd recommend you tell him to do so because there's a good chance he could easily double that and some more by putting some effort into his game.

There have been a fair few successful players who have never studied or watched videos. Very few though who are successful these days that do it because the amount of information out there is so much I think most would struggle unless you're very naturally gifted but as we know there are very few of those. Many years ago the old pros obviously out there all started with no study because there was nothing out there but back then the games were so easy to beat that anyone who was reasonable could beat the games for a decent amount. These days it would be nearly impossible for that to happen.

I read in a Viktor Blom interview that he never watched poker videos or studied anything and he's probably the most well known online pro these days and likely the most recent successful player who is one who did no study. I don't recall any others since, which just shows how very few do.

It's never overrated to study even for a talented player, any extra bit of information you can gain is always going to be a bonus. For the less talented player, if you can't beat online poker at the micros then obviously studying a must.

did stu ungar read books or watch videos. pretty sure not.
one of the best players in history.
it depends how much talented you are and do you learn by your experience or by reading/watching others experience, although reading and watching is very useful stuff for upgrading of your skill

It depends what you include in your definitions of studying and training. in particular, talking with other players isn't formal like books and videos, but can certainly be very helpful.

I wonder how Stu Unger would do nowadays playing poker?

I have a friend who is very successful at poker. In the last 5 years he has earned over $2 Mil online and almost another $750K live.

He wasn't always a money maker. When he began making some decent money, he read everything about poker he could get his hands on and hired a coach.

He is playing much more live now, and within the past year, he has placed 2nd in a wsop event for over $400K and 2nd for $120K+ in a WSOP circuit event.

I see him now searching for a Heads Up coach.

You can only improve your game by training and studying

I have always been a profitable poker player. Read a poker book? Tried reading the Harrington books 10 years ago and was bored out of my mind reading a book based on not much more than common sense.

The best way to learn is hands on, go out and play... and stop trying to apply advice from big name million dollar professional poker players to micro stakes games. The math takes all of five minutes to understand, the rest doesn't matter at these stakes.

no. imo any winning good player loves to do these things just for the reason to increase profits.

To alleviate any confusion, "micro stakes" wasn't meant as playing online for pocket change... $1/$2 live is casino micro stakes and no one makes a living playing live 1/2. 2/5 is borderline (and are probably high stakes to most who read this thread)... anything higher than that, outside of Vegas, and most of the players at your table have read the same books you did.

Good input guys im sure I replied. I guess not. Lol

Today I played a whole session and having not played for a while
and not playing with scared money ive ranked in the top 100 in two tournaments fields of 4762 and 12900 could be coincidence but really felt good (I have not read or watch any form of poker since december and have played online 3 times since new year.

Also up $108.20 from my cash session.
Not gona get carried away and maybe saturday night is a good day to play with all the recs out and drinking gambling etc.


p.s I think stu ungar played as a kid fir years gin rummy and was a genius also vicktor blom is impressive but I agree its not likely to happen to many

I heard Patrick Antonius say on HSP that he never read a book or studied the game

Maybe those people who didnt read at all, played million of hands just to be good.
Those people who have background of poker theories, short cut their ways just to be good likewise.
I prefer the latter.

Faraz Jaka is a good agressive player,and hi told that his never read a book about poker...

There are players that have play style and its hard to them to switch it... If they read books that is subject to change somethig but they cant...
Personaly i dont think poker is something that you can learn from book...there are so many variables in every hand...
Yes you can improve your game a bit,but i dont think its a major change...


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Maybe somewhere there are these talanted players you talk about, but for sure there are 1 in a 10 000 or sth. So better learn, read and study poker to be better player!

If I'm gonna read about poker it's gonna be at a place such as this. Tried a book years ago, nothing but really common sense stuff. True that there are lots to choose from, still ya can't ask a book questions.

Ronoh said:

I have always been a profitable poker player. Read a poker book? Tried reading the Harrington books 10 years ago and was bored out of my mind reading a book based on not much more than common sense.

The best way to learn is hands on, go out and play... and stop trying to apply advice from big name million dollar professional poker players to micro stakes games. The math takes all of five minutes to understand, the rest doesn't matter at these stakes.

Click to expand...

I understand this post. The fact is that all poker strategy is based on the ' xxxxxx obvious' to quote John Cleese. It so often comes down to who has a natural aptitude.

You can teach someone chess in five minutes but not everyone can be good at it. And unless you are very good you probably won't get much out of books detailing, for instance, the Sicillian Defence. You need a natural aptitude to start with, and an ability to absorb information easily and then apply it.

I do not believe it is possible to 'teach' someone how to be a really good poker player if they do not have that natural aptitude (and most don't) any more than it is possible to teach someone how to be a good footballer if he can't kick a ball properly.

However books will help some poker players get better...but not all! It's experience that makes the biggest progress, particularly if you have absorbed some of the information in good books. I read HOH and found it interesting because it said exactly what I had found out for myself - even down to the rule of 2, which I would have thought was obvious to absolutely anyone who had played a single hand of poker.

Macaroon said:

I understand this post. The fact is that all poker strategy is based on the ' xxxxxx obvious' to quote John Cleese. It so often comes down to who has a natural aptitude.

You can teach someone chess in five minutes but not everyone can be good at it. And unless you are very good you probably won't get much out of books detailing, for instance, the Sicillian Defence. You need a natural aptitude to start with, and an ability to absorb information easily and then apply it.

I do not believe it is possible to 'teach' someone how to be a really good poker player if they do not have that natural aptitude (and most don't) any more than it is possible to teach someone how to be a good footballer if he can't kick a ball properly.

However books will help some poker players get better...but not all! It's experience that makes the biggest progress, particularly if you have absorbed some of the information in good books. I read HOH and found it interesting because it said exactly what I had found out for myself - even down to the rule of 2, which I would have thought was obvious to absolutely anyone who had played a single hand of poker.

Click to expand...

Could not agree more even if I wanted to. Well written.

theRaven68 said:

did stu ungar read books or watch videos. pretty sure not.
one of the best players in history.
it depends how much talented you are and do you learn by your experience or by reading/watching others experience, although reading and watching is very useful stuff for upgrading of your skill

Click to expand...

This is apples to oranges. Stu Ungar played at a time when few books or training materials were available. So basically, no one used them because no one could. Would he be as great or great at all now without using the available materials and playing against opponents who have used them? Pure conjecture.

I think that is such players that did not study the rule of poker, but them very small. That successfully playing is necessary gentlefolks of rule of poker and gradually to study. Only it will result in a successful game and money!