Do I Have to call here?

I have been geeting some flack from people at MTT's for not callin all in bets in the following situation. Am I wrong? Ok Here's the set up I am a big stack at the table in the big blind, and a short stack pushes all-in for maybe 3 of 4 times the blind. Play folds around to me, to make the call it's less than 20% of my stack but I have rags so I fold. My logic is that I wouldn't call a big stack without a decent starting hand, so why should I be obligated to call the short stack just because it's his tournament if I win the hand. Any advice here?

It really depends on the situation, for example in the mid-late stages of tournaments with antees in place which usually adds up to another bb your pretty much committed to call. eg blinds at 1000/2000 antees at 200 if you have 100k chips at 10 handed table and someone moves all in for 3bb and your looking at 76 suited then if everyone including the small b folds you have BB plus SB=3000 plus antee= 2000
2000+3000+ his raise which would be 6000=11000
you have to call 4000 to win 15000
thats almost 4-1 odds your been offered so you would show a profit calling in the bb with any two cards in the long run and your healthy stack won't hurt you much to call, it is definitely a mistake to fold.

conversely if you are sitting with 16000 chips blinds are at 500-1000 and no antes and your in the bb and someone raises all in to 4000 chips making the pot 5500 you have to put in 3000 more to call your been offered 3000/8500

which is almost 3-1 to call so basically there is no situation in poker when 3bb all in is a negative equity call assuming you don't know there hand.

however I wouldn't like to call this off when losing the hand would leave me short stacked.

how close you are to the bubble and the values of different prizes can drastically alter this to.

for example in sit and goes there are situations when you have the pot odds to call all ins But doing so would be a mistake for ICM reasons.

ultimately it depends on structure and situation but as a general rule I would advice never to fold anything but complete junk with a stack size of 20BB+

Well, it kind of depends on a lot. How big your stack is compared to the bets and blinds, how short stacked the other guy is, and how many people are left. If the blinds are 150/300 and the guy goes all in for 400, you should be a little looser in what you call with. In the same case above, if you were the bb and the short stack makes it 400 it would look strange if you folded any hand heads up. I would give you flack for that too.

Another situation. You have a huge chip lead, lets say 15,000 and the blinds are 200/400 and the short stack goes in for 800 with 3 or 4 people left. You should probly make a call with almost anything. You make money from people being eliminated. The short stack's requirements for starting hands are going to go way down because of the blinds, and almost any two cards are good here.

In the end you can do what ever you want. The other guys at the table can call just as easily as you, they just don't want to put their chips in jeopardy. Your game should naturally open up a little as players get out. If you play too tight when short handed you are going to get beaten because the blinds come around so quick. It doesn't mean you have to call every all in with 5,7 off. But you also shouldn't be waiting for AA.

matahorne said:

My logic is that I wouldn't call a big stack without a decent starting hand, so why should I be obligated to call the short stack just because it's his tournament if I win the hand. Any advice here?

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While I don't think others should be giving you grief over it, unless they're friends just ribbing you, your mistake with this line of thinking is that you require the same hand strength to call a short stack vs a big stack. Not so! As the others pointed out, your calling range opens up much wider against a short stack, especially when you're deep stacked and already in for the blind. Remember that if the villain is down to his last 3-4BB he will most likely be shoving with anything, like any ace, paint, connectors, suited cards, 1-gappers, 2-gappers, etc. However you do need to consider the stack ratios too, unless I had 2x+ the chipstack of the 2nd stack player, I wouldn't consider another 20% of my stack to be an auto-call unless I had a fair hand -- I usually want a bit more buffer between us than that to call with just ATC.

Thanks for the replies i enjoyed all of them, they were well thought out and explained thank you.

If his all in was less than 2 BB I would call with anything if I was the big stack. Anything else I would probably let go. Don't let anyone talk you into losing your chips. There's a reason they're not the big stack.

You said less than 20%. That is to vague for me to give a good answer.

I know it is likely against what the math says.

I am going to assume we are talking a situation where no ante are involved instead of one where there are in this following example.

I will also assume the call would be for 10% of your chips.

The player goes all in UTG for 3 times the BB that are say 100/200 or 600 chips everyone folds to you on the button and you look down at 27 off.

With the SB and BB still to act I don't see a reason to hand over 600 with 2 people left to act.

If I am in the BB then it is only costing me 400 more to win 1300 giving me odds of 3.25 to 1 win.

I suppose there would be people that would argue that a chance to knock out a short stack is more important than losing 15% of your stack.

And that the short stack still had to go all in on the very next hand since he would only have 1300 chips left.

But, one would need to know how he got down to 3 times the BB. If he just suffered a bad maybe I would be inclined to make the call assuming that he is going all in with a desperation attempt to win and though I am most likely behind there is that chance to take out a short stack to keep in mind.

If they have not acted for 3 straight rounds giving away money to the blinds, then we are talking a complete different situation. One where I would have almost no problem conceding that he had a hand and not do something silly like call with junk.

If someone balks and says you should have called. Simply say, "You go ahead and call with 72 offsuit vs a person who has not been in a hand for 3 rounds. I wish you luck."

Mind you if everyone else had small stacks compared to yours. Say everyone had only 10x the BB or less it would likely be a much different scenerio then if you were chip leader and several people had stacks not much smaller than yours. Or you were sitting with a medium chip stack.

Lots of different things to think about before making a decision.

I fold here to a solid player....I need something to work with...doesnt make sense to let someone back in tournament by donating chips

Agree with drestrum here..... its nice when someone shoves all in when you catch a nice pair aa kk and get rid of them......

What tourney buy ins do you normally play mate?

I play in the 10 or 20 dollar buy ins.

Your chips your decision. 20% of your stack is a bit too much to call off especially if you have rags.

Don't let the "talk" get to you. Keep playing good cards and let somebody else risk their stack on bad cards.

You don't HAVE to do anything!! There your cards and your chips you play them however you want. I'm not a big fan of using words like HAVE TO or ALWAYS in poker. Now, you really do need to be more specific if you want a definate +/- EV but its a comfort thing, what kind of player are you? A gambler? I am kinda in your boat here, I tend to fold alot of these situations to. There is a point where its correct to call with 72. You just need to find a line your comfortable with and stick with it. Every poker player plays poker the same way, as he pleases.

Thanks for starting this post. It answered a question I have often wondered about, calling a short stack.

You never have to call. People think just because there cards look good to the eye you must put chips in. Not true, read your opponent and fold if you think they have you whipped.

It depends on lots of things but a short stack is going to push wath any 2 decent cards and very often Arag. Even 27 has a 28% chance against AA and better odds against other hands. You should not fel under pressure to call but if you win it you are sitting pretty.

I think it also depends on whether your in the money or not to. A lot of people say in mtts u have to play for the win to be profitable. However I disagree I think it depends on circumstances. obviously if you only play for making the bubble your gonna lose out in the long run as price pools are more weighted towards the top. However if your short stacked near the bubble you might be better of on this occasion just playing for the bubble money. in which case you want to preserve your stack to pass the bubble and it really shouldn't be called with rags.
On the other hand if your passed the bubble my calling range would be wide as I am now playing to win not for the next prize pool figure and you are getting good odds. I would call with suited connectors ace rag any pair and any two face cards but would still fold 9 2.

Of cause this is assuming your in the bb.

I had an extreme example of this earlier today when after shoving close to the bubble on the button with a10 suited with about 12 bb i got called by the small blind who had aq i was left with just under 1bb but got back to 4bb
with the bubble very close my friend was telling me on msn I had to gamble am i really going to throw away a shot at winning the tournament just to make the money.

answer yes I don't really have much of a shot the tournament buyin was $109 in this case I just want to get my buyin back. long story short my friend was an idiot and I doubled up in the bb when someone with a5 shoved on me and i had caught JJ a miracle for the situation, it basically saved my ass and i eventually won $188.

the point I am making is mtt tournaments are not just go for the win every single time, when I start if I wasn't planing on fighting for final table then i shouldn't enter, but here the win was no longer realistic and to hell with pot odds.

generally though it depends on the situation short stacked close to the bubble hold on don't gamble anywhere else i would call with a wide range.